Should FFXIV Change to a Player Driven Economy? | The Debate
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What starts off as a talk of Relics, turns into a debate about player-driven economy vs thempark MMORPGs
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Work To Game is a Video Game Channel that loves to talk about Video Games. We love Multiplayer RPGs so you’ll see us play games like Final Fantasy XIV, World of Warcraft, Destiny 2, Minecraft, Apex Legends, Guild Wars 2, and Phantasy Star Online 2. Brian and Chris are the two hosts who have been friends for many years, and we make video discussions, guides, news, podcasts, and more.
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Idk I agree to keep something earned that’s considered difficult to obtain to be off limits to being sold. Everyone would just have the same glamour and same accomplishments without actually going through obstacles or the journey which I feel is what the main purpose of an RPGMMO in the first place. I don’t agree with P2W in any way because it creates “classes” within a game of people who can afford it and those who can’t and have to actually play the game.
I 100% agree with Chris. I don't think an mmo will ever be able to run on a fully player driven economy based on personal experience with wow. I think a big reason people have jumped ship and loved ff14 from wow is the economy. Wow token made everything feel terrible and it fed into a lot of the issues people had with toxicity and elitism. M+ is a great example where everyone thought everyone else had purchased a carry to pad their stats. The wow token is just sanctioned RMT and it creates a wealth funnel for bots and no lifers which further perpetuates itself
I'm going to join the bandwagon and say Brian is mostly wrong here. He's making the argument that there shouldn't be trophies. Anything we treat as a trophy should sellable on the market board. And no, just no. However I will agree that if it is done carefully we could see more progress related steps, especially grindy stuff, sold on the Market Board. I was having trouble getting started in Bozja. My FC wasn't interested in that content so I was having to pug everything. I bought a bunch of Lost Fragments on the MB to bolster my Lost Actions supply to jump into the content people were actively doing rather than desperately trying to farm mobs that only drop items and no XP, Mettle, or anything helpful. I used the time I had spent on Coffee Biscuits to save time grinding mobs by trading gil to another player.
My PotD aetherpool weapons are in the 90s. I have zero interest in the weapon glamours. So why can't I sell Atherpool Grips to someone who does want the glamour? Or to someone getting started? You can buy MGP only up to a small amount to get started. That's to make sure someone doesn't get softlocked out of the Gold Saucer, but why not have aetherpool like that? A new player can use purchased Grips to jumpstart up to a hard cap. It is something that needs to be handled VERY CAREFULLY though. Boosting as a service in WoW has reached the point that it has strongly damaged the health of the game. And what Brian is proposing here, making trophies and progression market sellable, is dangerously close to the same result.
brian is way off for sure, the best thing about ultimates is the weapon flex, gil has no place in that transaction, carry buys are already bad enough
I can understand parts of where Brian is coming from, but buying progression on the market board is two steps backwards and three steps towards more bots and more RMT and less value in achievement. I think the core concept of shifting progression off stats and items is neat and could be worth exploring, but not like this.
Brain i agree with you on most things, but you are way off base for having ultimate weapons be tradeable. The only reward from doing ultimates is those weapons. You suddenly allowing people to sell the weapons instantly devalues every person who has ever gotten one, and will make future ultimate weapon less coveted. The reason for that is because you will always have in the back of your mind "Did that guy really beat the hardest content or just they just buy it off the markerboard." That would only hurt the ultimate system, and i would rather not have that happen even though i would love to have the tea weapons. I respect the "Trophy" mentality. If you want the Ultimate glowing weapons put in the time and do the ultimate. If you dont want to put in the time or cant we have the relics in the game for a reason. Not only for BIS at the end of an expansion, but they are easy to obtain glowing weapons that anyone can acquire casually.
Both have good points! But i have to side with chris here, if money can buy anything then we lose the meaning of doing the content and every becomes money making
I think you severely underestimate how much of mmo players disagree with you on the buy everything concept and how utterly fast this game would lose its community if implemented. I wouldnt be subbed a day past even the announcement.
I agree with Chris. We want content that has prestige that we can feel good about earning, and tying any portion of it become butane discredits that tremendously and lessens the achievement.
I totally disagree with Brian on all fronts.
hell no relics, ultimates, unreal, certain mounts etc should not be sellable. you want those skins? earn them.
Chris is correct 100% on this one
Brian has lost his mind. No sense of accomplishment if someone can just buy a trophy off the market board. Absolutely dumb as hell, it will NEVER happen either bc the devs are smart enough to know what drives players to want to complete high end content. Small brain take.
I think theres a world where both can exist fairly well where a hardcore player can run content and be monetarily rewarded in game for it. Technically its already in the game as is with Trials. Let me use Ultimate as an example of how my thoughts on this would work.
-Hardcore player: Progs UCoB for 120 hours. Clears and gets rewarded this his normal token that he can use to get his special UCoB weapon.
-UCoB: Also drops a special material that can be crafted into a glamour version of the weapon that isnt quite as special looking, maybe has a slight altered animation or color is changed. Something that makes it not as good looking as the real one but keeps the theme of the weapon overall.
-Casual who spends most time crafting and being in glamour contests but doesnt have the time to prog UCoB for a certain weapon for a theme they want to do but can now buy a glamour version of it that still fits their needs.
In this world, both people win. The hardcore player has their trophy for clearing the hardest content in the game and the casual who just wants to chill and play around in glamour contests now has a way to obtain a certain look without having to prog with randos in content they might not even want to do. The hardcore players achievement isnt diminished in the slightest because they have the real weapon that they can show off along with the title and got rewarded with a bunch of gil ontop of it since im sure the glamour crafted version would sell for 10's of millions.
Making it a pure Gil game would destroy the game. Yes it's important but it's not everything. Grinding for a mount like the Zadnor one took me a long time to get. I'm working on the TT card mount. If these ever become available for tomes or appear in cash shop or the market board, it's the beginning of the end and personally would turn me off the game to be honest. Brian I completely disagree with you on this one and I am surprised by your stance !
The moment you turn trophies into something that people can sell freely on the market, is the moment I'll check out from having FFXIV as my main game.This is exactly the recipe to turn RMT and botting in 14, into a more prevalent problem than it is right now.
Have to hard disagree on Brian here. Having trophy things that are untradeable, is a way for us players to set goals for ourselves – probably to do things that we probably wouldn't do otherwise.
I agree with them both. People look at achievements they do and tend to use it more as a way of showing off and/or self satisfaction. My issue with it is most content mounts become easy later on and people get them after they become easier negating the prestige of them. Now if they made it so it had to be synced and what not than I feel they would be closer to a trophy, like how ultimates are. At the same time we look at different things as more prestige than others. Ultimate's are difficult and we look at them as something special, but then we have something like completing the fishing log, who gets little to no real rewards along the way, as not impressive or simply just a grind. The time it takes to complete the fishing log is far more than all ultimate's combined. Now people will argue difficulty which is a valid argument, but with the sheer amount of time you spend to complete the fishing log, it would be highly unlikely that if you spent that amount of time in ultimates you wouldnt complete them. The fights are all scripted for the most part so its becomes less on personal ability to adjust and instead on your ability to memorize and execute. Also it can be argued its not hard to just buy runs with gold and real money anyways so seeing people who have these "prestige" items make you wonder if they got it legit. Some of it comes from jealousy and what not but it is a real concern. I look at it as going to a prestigious school. Most are there from their abilities, like with ultimate clears, but there are some who got there on daddy influence or money which would be closer to what buying runs are. There is a lot of things both Chris and Brian have points on but I think a lot of it comes from their individual starts to MMO's and how those games shaped what they would consider prestigious. I feel achievements and titles are the best way to show a level of prestige people look for, but with no way of stopping cheaters from buying them it will still cause a debate. I liked the conversation a lot. Great work.
Thanks Brian & Chris for the video. Very interesting. I listened to both sides & both sides have valid points. I know I will be in the very minority with everyone that commented but I'm more for Brian's point of view regarding selling – unsellable items & market prohibited items. I think people miss one of the points that Brian's was trying to make & that is if you want to sell an special weapon or gear that is only obtainable via extreme or exclusive content, THEN they should have that choice to sell it, especially if they don't want or have no need for it.
When I first did COPIED FACTORY, I got a piece of caster gear, I didn't like it, didn't want & found out I couldn't sell it. That sucked. So I discarded it. So whenever I do the 24 man raids, I PASS on all gear because I can sell it to anyone, especially to someone who doesn't like doing 24 man raids but may like the gear. I do the 24 man raid to get the coin to upgrade my gear. If SE would sell give an option to sell those coins along with the other options, I would them instead of having to run 3 24 man raids to get coins upgrade gear that will be obsolete in a couple of months.
Basically what Brian is saying is giving the player options & choices if he/she WANTS to sell that exclusive gear, they should be able to. Just my opinion.
I feel like Brian is REALLY trying to make a point and is very optimistic here. However, he is playing the heel in this conversation. The heat is definitely on Chris's side on this one. I usually have a 50/50 feeling when it comes to his takes.
However, even in some the details Chris talks about you have heard from Brian's POV and hes using it to his advantage here. Which I dont think most people will catch because they are so focused on the negatives from Brian's comments. Good talk though.
I mean… Let's say I studied neurosurgery. I put in the time to learn neurosurgery concepts; the sleepless nights, the endless wall of books I need to read, then pass the exam to be a valid practitioner… Do you really want it so that I could just sell my license to a random schmoe because they wanted to be a surgeon but they're really good in stock trade?
That's what Brian is essentially asking for here. The game needs to have these 'chase' experiences. If you craft, and you enjoy craft, and all you do is craft, you don't really deserve a weapon or a title from TEA. Making everything sellable effectively devalues these experiences by putting a price tag on them whereas they're invaluable right now.
I can Honestly say if somebody was able to negate the ungodly amount of time I spent getting Saint of the firmament title with just some amount of gil and it is no longer a trophy I’d quit immediately and move on to something else. Chris is 100% right here. You want the shiny thing somebody else has go do the content.
I think Brian – just wants to optimize his time to what works best for him – to get the things locked behind activities he doesn't have time for. That trade works in real life. But in a video game it is good to have prestige (thing not available with $$). Its not "just a skin". Its a trophy that says either "I am better than you at x" or "I have the time/dedication to do this particular activity. Does that mean that some stuff isn't available to everyone? Yep – but that's not a bad thing
The whole selling ultimate thing is why wow is such a shitshow now. Everything is boosted because nothing is a trophy its just something you buy.
Not sure how long Brian played XI. But I played back in the day (on the PS2) and buying a Hauby, Scorp Harness, O kotes, Brown belt, sushi, and everything was virtually out of reach for the majority of the player base. The Utsusemi scroll was ridiculously expensive.
I got my Joyeuse by actually taking down the NM with a few people (complete strangers) that were kind enough to help me. Then in return I helped others who helped me get theirs. It was a great way to make new friends.
RMT destroyed the economy. Gil buyers and sellers destroyed the game. I spent most of my week trying to make Gil instead of actually playing the game.
I don't want to play a game where my first thought is making Gil and then playing the game if I have the time.
Crafting and gil is 50% of my game in ffxiv (the other 50% been ultimates and savages oddly enough).
From a gil maker, I think it's a bad idea. I don't want RMT in the game. This will guarantee it.
I do think Chris' argument is bad though. "I wouldn't have done the content then and I enjoyed it"… ok. That sounds like a player problem. If they don't want to try content, then that's on them. I enjoy both gil making and raiding so I do both. Not because I get a "trophy" but because I enjoy the content. If someone else can't try content without been forced too… that's a them problem.
I've never seen someone so wrong in one video as Brian has been here. Imagine deadass saying that ultimate weapons should be buyable lmao. Glamour is the ONLY reason to run content, imagine thinking that not only is gear not the reason to run content but the way it looks being even less important. That's literally as wrong as you can be.
So were do free players fit in this buy everything world? o wait the amount of players who would quit would be so huge hes would murder the game in one go good thing hes one guy whose about to find out his take is not welcome .
gear is 100% a trophy
I want to live in a world where I watch videos like this. I enjoy the multiple view points here very much. I fall in the middle of you both. I think more things should be sellable but not all. I honestly hope this video didn’t get you two heated to much. I feel like this video really hit home and was real. Thank you!