Discussing Shadowbringers, the games through the ages, and some other thoughts following the review project. This video couldn’t happen without your lovely comments, thank you for those.
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00:00 – Skip to Start
0:40 – Final Fantasy 14 vs Guild Wars 2
25:21 – Outro
source
The story writing quality isn't even a competition, anyone coming to GW2 from a FFXIV perspective should just take GW2 as an action mmo. FF14's writing quality is hands down the best in the industry. Arenanet really shouldn't try to compete with FF14 in terms of story because honestly there is no one in ArenaNet that is on par with Ishikawa (lead writer for FF14). Shadowbringers and more specifically patch 5.3 is probably the best writing I've ever experienced in gaming, on par if not even exceeding The Last of Us.
The reason Stormblood gets a bad rep is because of how absolutely incredible Shadowbringers is, it is EVERY bit as good as all the hype. Imo you should definitely revisit your story comparison take after finishing the Shadowbringers patches.
If Guild Wars 2 had Gear progression, then I wouldn't mind the gem store no sub fee, but sense SKINS are the end game of GW2, the gem store ruins that and I rather pay a sub. Skins are fine to buy, if skins aren't the carrot. But that's not the case in GW2, so the gem store really hurts it, IMHO
17:24 to be fair, how many people in GW2 play raids.
they not easy to get into. and the community for them was so toxic and elitist to anyone who was, to them, undergeared, that most people gave up and forgot they were a thing
Ever since I left GW2 a few years ago I missed your indepth videos and just the laid back, chill style of yours, so I'm happy I have a reason to watch your videos again (other than the few times I checked on you/GW2 when I wanted to know how things are going for the game). I hope you'll continue your journey. Even tho I left GW2 a while ago, I will never forget the time I had with it till like the end of PoF era. I'm in love with FFXIV atm, but its missing a ton of stuff that made me love GW2(JPS, combat, the unique mounts omg I miss them so much, the maps and meta events), so I'm waiting for the perfect MMO to be released (maybe the RIOT one?:D).
I really don't think the writers in FFXIV are planning ahead that much more, that's just not how game development works. But without a doubt they are much MUCH better at making it appear as if they DID plan ahead. Arenanet on the other hand is notoriously horrible at picking up old story threads and delivering a satisfying conclusion later on.
Number of hours of voiced cutscenes in FFXIV:
———- FREE TRIAL——-
Base game – A Realm reborn: 8 hours 15 minutes
First Expansion – Heavensward : 7 hours 17 minutes
Total Number of Voiced Cutscenes For Free Trial : 15 hours +-
———- FREE TRIAL——-
Second Expansion – Stormblood: 11 hours 50 minutes
Third Expansion – Shadowbringers: 17 hours 5 minutes
Total Number of Voiced Cutscenes : 44 hours +-
Its far too simple to just say that ff14 has 'more' because what you're really talking about is traditional linear progression and dungeons. While I understand why ff14 love their story so much and the linear progression of it and its systems, that lack of direction, among other things, creates a value in itself that I love. FF14 will satisfy the lowest common denominator of mmo players, those that enjoy WoW clones and their like. And there's nothing wrong with that I'm glad for their success but that's not every aspect of an mmo or what an mmo can be. Some of us really really REALLY hate having to go through a story alone to level up, those alternative systems are what give GW2 its identity.
While I understand that mass consensus will say that these parts of ff14 are very important there are some of us that hate that structure. That would prefer no to little story at all and enjoy the more sandbox nature of coming up with our own objectives. If my MORE is open world and pvp ff14 doesn't even come close by any means. The lack of that traditional focus is what draws players in and makes gw2 different. Should we expect more than just costumes on the Black Lion Market and more from Anet, definitely.
But gw2 was never made to be a traditional mmo, it was made to be different. So I can understand if you want more traditional things out of gw2, but please understand some of us abhor us. Its okay to be different I'd much rather GW2 pump out more maps, explorative elements,cooperative elements, WvW, etc than the story itself.
FF14 say it is ok to play other games, and have houses that you need to keep login in to refresh or you lose, so you need to keep your subscription…
gw2 dont have a subscription, so they need you to keep playing and keep buying some gems and skins and stuff too keep the devs feed
it is kind of injustice to compare.
Great video ! A bit sad I was not chosen into your your "response" video but I will continue to answer here to some of things you said because I disagree
I'm not okay with you about the fact they no difference between subscription game and game with only cash shop. It's just a fact, a studio will gain more money this way than with simply with a shop or at least will keep a stable income who can help them to develop other things, manage their teams for bigger project, activities or more expensive technologies evolution
Worse for ff14 because it have BOTH, a cash shop AND a subscription fees. The amount of money they gain is so big they basically saved square enix from the FF15 financial pit they made. they got money enough to say "we can prepare something bigger" and I don't think GW2 has this luxury (layoff for example or the fact they had difficulties to release scheduled stuff or even the Icebrood saga who was underwhelming and rushed)
The second thing is both story from both games. You say FF14 is hammy and it's absolutely the truth . In guild wars , we got deus machina and mc guffin and it's true but in FF14, you ARE the Deus ex machina and the MC guffin. Literally most of the time an opponent show to you, you kill it easily, In gw2 , you killed an elder dragon by getting into his mind WHILE an army distract him by fighting him on the land. In FF14, canonically, you kill gods SEVERAL TIME AND UNPREPARED, it's so HAMMY and dumb but people accept that because it's final fantasy, and in final fantasy (and in some other japanese game), the over the top spirit and the ham is almost cultural
For me FF14 story is good because it got the easy way by his branding name.
It's a final fantasy so it got the right to be boring and give a lot of filler quest to give you the feeling you do something, It's a final fantasy game so it got the right to work like a solo game and being branded as a MMO, it's a final fantasy game so we can forgive a lot of things because it's quirky
IMO, gw2 don't have that and people punish it way to hard by the publics
to be clear, ff14 does not have a bad story it's pretty good a lot of time but it got easier on that and the whole game too and that, GW2 sadly can't compete
FF14 is like living in EU while GW2 is like living in LATAM.
The Old Republic (Star Wars) is actually really good. They played to their strengths (story) and have since then just been adding tons of new fully voiced story campaigns. Their expansion packs are free if you sub to the game for 1 month (all xpacks get unlocked for free). It's basically a single player game inside of an MMO coat. I don't play it much, but whenever I feel like a fun space adventure, I re-install the game.
I think the same themes are true for GW2 compared to Elder Scrolls Online. GW2 definitely does a lot of things better than ESO, but ESO just has so much content, so many quests. GW2 only has the main story, so once you're done with the new episode, you just log off for the next few months until they do a new episode.
I’m really interested in this project because when I started playing FFXIV I wanted to write a long Reddit post about the differences between FFXIV and GW2. What I wanted to say was basically that GW2 players don’t fully appreciate how great GW2 is compared to other MMOs. And to a large extent, I still agree with it. I think your first review video was brilliant because it didn’t seem biased one way or the other but I disagreed with the conclusion. For me, FFXIV has much more to learn from GW2. That certainly doesn’t mean that GW2 shouldn’t learn anything from FFXIV. The way I see FFXIV is that it’s a mind-numbingly uninventive MMO that was executed spectacularly well. The opposite is true for GW2. I could probably write about the differences for hours but the reason why I think GW2 is better are these: much better combat system, much better open world experience, more interesting lore (very subjective ofc), better PVP and better mounts. As a FFXIV veteran I feel like I haven’t got much to do apart from levelling other classes. I don’t mind doing it from time to time but FFXIV dungeons get boring after a while and the open world experience is horrendous. I also don’t really enjoy the combat most of the time and I mainly play for the story. But of course, it all comes down to what is important to you. If all you care about is group content, then FFXIV is definitely a far better choice for you.
The story in GW2 works more in the now. Like, while you play it the first time. But it falls apart the moment you look at the greater picture. There is a red line going through vanilla all the way up to LW5 (the dragons) but thats about it. There are many side stories that are either only relevant during one patch, or get dropped shortly after. Nothing really feels like we build towards. What long lasting gain did we get out of HoT, aside of one Dragon being dead in the end? In fact, we butchered a lot of stories during HoT because it was too short and many things had to be left out. What did we get out of PoF? Well nothing really because we didn't kill an elder dragon during the main story of PoF. We defended one dragon from being killed by another character. So cool, we gained that? No, we didn't. Because we killed that very same dragon 6 patches later anyways but on our own terms. All of the side stories going on during that time? Gone. The moment we leave LW4 all of these stories are gone. If they are resolved or not. Doesn't matter really because we are not in PoF anymore but now in the icebroon saga with a whole new cast of characters and storylines.
When we compare that to FFXIV it's really a shame realizing what a bit story planning could have done for GW2. Now, GW2's story is a bit disconnected because of their philosophy towards expasions and that you don't need HoT to play PoF. So can they really build on something that happened in HoT or PoF during the EoD storyline? Aside of small little nods towards previous stories, not really. And this is ofc hurting the story telling. This said, if you are fine with an anthology like story, in the sense that there is one overarching storyline but each chapter (expansions and LW seasons) can stand on their own, it's still a fun thing to play through.
But still… We are at a point where I would with for Arena Net going back to the old expansions and living world seasons and making them mandatory to play through. Because what you have now are new players who go through vanilla but then only own EoD. They won't know any of the characters, don't know why we have a connection to an elder dragon (that we are actually fighting against according to the vanilla storyline) and everything will feel really disconnected. This worked in GW1 because, every campaign had it's own entry point into the story. But it's not working for GW2 where everyone has to start in content from 2012, that is frozen in time, and then technically can go straight to the 2022 content without any introduction.
So yeah… Story can be a difficult thing in MMO's. Both approaches cater to different kind of gamer. There are a lot of people who are not interested in story at all and that's why they probably won't play FFXIV. Just because they are forced to play through it or buy a skip tome from the real money item store. On the other hand, people who are interested in a very deep and interconnected story, might not really have fun in GW2 because it's just all over the place.
i think ff14 story to me is not very immersive to me, i came to try ff14 after years of playng GW2, ESO(and oher TES games), WOW. and ff14's story could never hold me, it could never make me feel emotional. and it severely suffers from a lack of the sort of lore i like, the things i experienced in those mentioned games, you can find very small amounts here and there but it's not very good, just as an example most races/clans have very little cultural depth and identity, you don't see very distinctive styles of armour and clothing they wear, you don't hear from culturally significant heroes and you don't hear about their beliefs and mythologies, the way they tend to fight like you see just as many miqo'te mages as you se miqo'te archers, and you have these great artifacts like Gáe Bolg but you don't know where they came from why they are powerful, who created them, what is their power aside from being powerful. it just feels so shallow.
There really is something to be said for the further planning the XIV team does for their story/narrative. IIRC they do the actual writing about 3 patches ahead (Ishikawa was wrapping up 5.3 when Shadowbringers launched), but their super high-level notes and general direction is bullet-pointed approximately two full expansions ahead. And it really shows in the way they reference things that have happened in the past and in the recurring characters. From a game development perspective, it really helps to keep the vision and momentum going for the team. That's crucial – as a player I always feel like the XIV team has a plan for the future and they're thinking of what comes next so I have no qualms about spending my time and money on the game.
GW2 doesn't ever really feel like it has a cohesive vision for the future that they've stuck to. First it was Living World, then they pivoted to the expansion model, but then even with expansions they switched from the meta-event-driven HoT to PoF. And the story itself feels like it's meandered so much, with dangling plot threads that have never been meaningfully addressed. I just don't expect a satisfying conclusion now to the Elder Dragon story in EOD, whereas I'm hyped as hell to see the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story end in EW. I'll still check out new updates occasionally in GW2 because you're right, once you've caught up it's easy to keep current in both games. But GW2 just doesn't feel the same anymore.
Generally speaking, I'd also be interested in your comparisons to ESO and other MMOs. I myself mainly play FFXIV but I dabble in GW2 and LotRO (which is still alive and kicking, and was one of if not the first MMOs to do a big, ongoing, cohesive narrative) and have been meaning to dip my toes into ESO but have never found the time. There were others I played like Secret World or SWTOR too but those had their own issues to contend with.
Yeah play ESO! If I was forced to play any other MMO than GW2, it would easily be ESO. I just can't stand FFXIV's slow story.
Guild wars is like wow in terms of story. a complete trainwreck. A good story with great build up but just went to shit in the end . Like game of thrones season 8.
As a big lore nerd of gw2 , i hope to see wp if you can explain who E is, what happened to malyck, lyssa’s mirror? Scepter of orr lolz! Why did jormag go head to head with primy boy after all the build up about him losing when he goes head to head with him. Rip gw2 story and lore butchered to the ground.
I agree with GW2 doesn't do enough. Not to say there isn't bucket-loads of content because there is. but everything in the game is combat, the only none combat we have is jumping puzzles and crafting, which aren't things that you really invest in.
Another thing with the sub, I do think that FF sub gives them more to play with, so they don't have to 'think' so much about what they invest in, so I do think not having a sub makes the development slower.
Regarding (paraphrased) "Prefering a Sub fee where the store doesn't get in on 'legendary mounts' and other cool things vs, GW2's current model [Store is full of abundantly shiny and 'non-earnable through in-game achievement" items…"
This has, over time, has become the most prolific source of contention/problems between Anet's marketing strategies and the in-game problems concerning in-game rewards.
It was not evident at release, but especially as we have gotten more and more top quality skins locked behind black lion chests, or outright purchase in the store as standalone items, I see the Gem store as a content leak for GW2.
Suppose that new hovercraft skimmer skin was related to, let's say, full-clearing each path of the Crucible of Eternity dungeon with every profession Dungeon, for example… that would spur people to do content. /I/ would do it.
But the gemstone continues to be a release valve for items we could be earning, and the TP facilitates the desire to spend money buying gems because of all of the desirable items that continue to exist there. Namely, legendaries and the precursors, but also prestige/uber-rar items like infusions and items like "Bench of the Final Judge", etc.
Yes, I know the Final Fantasy store has certain items that may be priced above the average for comparison to Guild Wars 2, however many of their items are at least available for purchase at any time of the year. We have a rotating stock for, truly, NO other reason other than to create FOMO.
Can Guild Wars 2 still have the store and be subscription list? Yes absolutely. But it really needs to consider changing many aspects of how It's currently structured.
1. Get rid of gems as an intermediate currency.
2. Assign items value using national currencies.
3. Eliminate the rotation of stock for no reason, it's just artificial scarcity.
…
4. Ideally, remove the ability to buy gold with gems or, in this instance, buying gold directly with money.
5. Dont get me started on templates and other items that are very "double-dipped" in the game.
I happen to think that the handling and positioning of the gemstone has hamstrung GW2s ability to award players for playing the game vs their wallet.
No fucking way you going to like ARR after Shadowbringers but I think you be glad playing through it
As a former wow and ff11 player and current gw2 and ff14 player. I don't really agree with the consistently increased level progression. While I like it gives the player something to do, I think it can come off too daunting when you have to level from 1 to 100+. Even wow has squished their leveling back down to a cap of 60. I think games should follow gw2's philosophy of finding other things to do for endgame content.
WHen it comes to story, I usually miss the distinction between the story itself and the delivery. I think I have pretty much stopped playing FF14 at the same point WP is in this review (4 or five quests away from shadowbringers), so I can not take the changes made in the last expansion into consideration, but I do like the way the story is delivered in GW2 from season 2 onwards.
In GW2 most of the time you are in the action while learning new stuff and your own character actually speaks and takes a lead role. The other characters are fighting alongside you, you listen in to characters in the area or you are getting teased by a villain you are going against, and that all while you still have full control over your character. Sometimes you have to interact with objects or characters in a scene to trigger – sometimes optional – dialogues. And you can experience most of the main story together with other players if you like. No matter how good the stories are, these are all elements of story delivery I missed when I tried FF14 last year.
In FF14 you have a lot of cutscenes where your character only does some basic emotes (if anything) and you have to sit through these cutscenes. Some few times you get a to choose between answers you could give. You also get cutscenes that show stuff your character can't really know, only you as a player. Maybe that's just a matter of taste, but when I want to immerse into a character and a story, this is something I just don't like, although it still manages to rise the tension.
And then there were quite some "travel around the world to just talk this one NPC that we could have placed closer as well" type quests, especially in the old version of the ARR (played before the revamp). This feels just like trying to stretch the story so often.
By the way: The cutscenes and cinematics are incredible in FF14, and you definetelly feel that square enix has a lot of experience in this department. But I also think that there a quite some GW2 cinematics that are just so underrated.
Anyway: I think if you take the best parts of FF14, GW2 and ESO you could create the perfect MMO for my specific taste. Your taste may be different, so your specific mix might be different as well, but I believe there are many players who feel the same way after trying out these three MMOs.