Futures Rewritten Ultimate World Race is over, and once again the team who finished first has been exposed of cheating. So Frosty (creator of Mogtalk who partnered with Echo for the World Race stream) made a post about the future of FFXIV World Races. Frosty wants to completely ban any third party programs and mods in future races while Xeno and the community disagree.
Original post: https://mogtalk.org/2024/12/03/the-ffxiv-world-race-and-its-future/
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Channel Editor: Leo Coman (Discord: leo.coman)
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Hey guys – Leo the editor here. I'm sorry if the audio is a bit scuffed this video. There was background music that I had to remove for YouTube. Also apologies if Xeno is a bit low energy, he streamed this reaction after raiding all day and getting his FRU clear so please be nice!
take the L bald man unxdd
You can't win next ult, your zoom hack is obvious x)
I was banned from Echos chat for pointing out other Ultimates that were cleared while people were cheating when chatters were first losing their mind about GRIND. But those teams are obviously still world first, it's wild that people approve of some cheating but disapprove of other cheating… ITS STILL FUCKING CHEATING!
Frosty may have disqualified GRIND, but Kindred still openly recognised them as getting world first. Doesn't matter what the community says, when the teams actually competing acknowledge it.
"Don't get caught" was always the SE policy, so it makes perfect sense to be the community policy as well. The mods may improve the gameplay experience, but the existence of mods in general makes the game substantially worse. The mods shouldn't exist; the game should just be fixed such that no one feels like those mods are necessary.
The two most pressing issues (that will probably never happen) is for SE to add an official way of exporting logs AND to fix their dogshit netcode, so the slightest latency/jitter doesn't completely mess up the gameplay. The former is easy, but they don't really want to do it, and the latter is difficult, and they don't give enough of a crap about it, hence it ain't gonna happen.
SE caring more about PvP than PvE racing is absolutely insane. XIV PvP (much like most MMORPGs) is boring rubbish that no one cares about.
The main reason I quit WoW was because I was sick of the addon scene, and how prevalent it was in the game, community, and development philosophy. A big part of the appeal of FF14 was that from the outside looking in, it looked like it was different. And it was, but the only difference was the company policy on it. Under the surface, the community is the exact same.
If people enjoy the game and the raids, then go for it. Just because people are cheating doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. But the idea that there's any value in a world first race with zero integrity is kind of a joke, and chasing achievements in online multiplayer games is a waste of time.
Hey guys, sorry for the dumb question but he said ACT is against TOS, so if SE wanted they could go to fflogs and ban everyone on there?
Sooo we will not get ff logs from this clears ? 😂
Hey everyone,
this is going to be fairly long,
I have decided to wear green shirt today.
This may not be the answer most people wanted, but it’s the answer I feel is right.
-noone
Pride, charity, money. I'm not saying everyone cheats, what I'm saying is cheaters are everywhere, even the Olympics
in any event sponsored by square you would have to ban ACT and any latency mods; but this wasn't sponsored by square.
how does fflogs work? does it need ACT?
Square's actual stance on addons is obviously moronic (and yoship knows this as he has existed in raid scenes and knows tools like ACT exist for a reason). The law is not always right, and shouldn't be used as a strictly moral guideline. It's up to the actual world first players to decide amongst themselves what they want to be acceptable in their community challenge, and what should cause social ostracisation. Just like casual players think that some plugins should exist in the game (text bubbles) some competitive players are of the same mind. If it appeals to the spirit of the game, then it should be in.
XIVALEX/Noclippy should just be in the game, this is not a hot take. The poor implementation of networking that essentially reads double your ping for animation locks is just bad design that fucks over people with bad connection. Pixel Perfect is a harder sell but I'd still agree on it. In a game all about dodging aoes, you'd probably want to know where your character actually is in 14's increasing visual clutter. It sucks that if you want to be optimal, playing lala in less flowy outfits is the way to go as it's the easiest to sus out where you're actually standing. This is increasingly relevant as attack animations have gotten more flashy to the point of your character simply disappearing all together as they warp around (viper).
I'd personally not go much farther past that point and stand firmly against any plugin that actively solves a mechanic for you (act/cact callouts, splatoon, ect) but ultimately it's up to the people actually doing the content.
I do not care about square's definition of cheating. They're not the ones running the tournament, and any attempted 'official' tournament is forced to follow their stance on modding which the community OBVIOUSLY disagrees with as this game's modding scene is massive. I do not care about the opinion of people who will never touch the content.
yall are so myopic, its all about $$$$$$$ from the game. they dont care about your smol baby contest. have yall taken a look at how many people are inside those mods discords? its in the hundreds of thousands of people.
if se were to force anti cheat on the game and alienate a huge chunk of the playerbase, its gonna hurt their revenue. this is why they are not addressing it. this is why they are not fixing it. because there is nothing to be fixed. why would they want to destroy their game thats making them so much money?
you all are a bunch of lawfull chills… besides pvp (lmao) this isn't a competitive game to begin with! the real cope is to think that it is!! you can compete aaaaaalll you want! but at the end of the day, it is not, and it doesn't matter if one is "cheating" or not. Xeno is right.
STRAMER HAS PLOGON!!!!!!!!!!
I can understand your sentiment that none of it can be enforced. But just because it cannot be enforced, doesn’t mean it should continue. At what point does the ban hammer come onto everyone?
When using Dalamud as an entirety can be a reason for ban.
ACT, Cactbot, Death Recap, Encounter timer, Alexander/Noclip, Pixel Perfect, Cammy, AbyssosToolbox, Triggernometry, Splatoon, MMOMINION, ACR, Etc
Splatoon has had 300k extra downloads since 7.05. There is a comparable amount of Splatoon users as there are Death recap users. Everyone and their mum in PF is using Splatoon.
Ive stopped raiding because raiding is a joke. Downloading logs and identifying the object ID to setup your own custom events is so easy. Dealing with a bunch of overgrown goblins, salting over who can cheat harder, play more perfectly and raging in PF isn’t what I want to participate in anymore. I’ll happily clear Week 1 before ACT and Dalamud beta are up. But otherwise I’ll leave the Boomers, Cheaters and the Sweaters to clear ults.
I honestly think that the dev team and Yoshi-P in general probably greatly allign with the general view on addons, but they cannot make it their official stance for the reasons Xeno explains in this video. And since they essentially have the two choices of "Nothing is ok" and "Everything is ok" I much prefer their current stance, aswell as their view on how anti-cheat would be a bad thing for the game. It's simply how they have to do it, with the limitations of law, etc.
Frosty needs to understand, or maybe one day he will, that no matter how much he has created this whole World Raid Race scenario, he doesn't control anything. The game is still Square's, and they couldn't care less about it. Who is he to decide what people can or cannot use? Officially, in his mind, there might be 10 teams racing for World 1st, but there are 50 others doing the same who aren't part of his idiot race. What is he going to do? Ask the groups to show a detailed log of all the software installed on their PCs before, during, and after the event? It seems like the more visibility they gain, the more they turn into completely idiots.
Frosty is the type of guy who would believe that olympic weightlifting is a clean sport.
The worst part is that the rules themselves are contradictory. Because of how SE just straight up refuses to be more specific about what constitutes unfair third party tools, streaming and recording itself, strictly by the letter of SE's ToS, is also against ToS. Ironically even moreso than sims. If you want to follow ToS strictly as it is written, you must not have any other programs open at all. No discord, no recording, no streaming, even using your web browser to look up a guide is technically using a third party program. All of this is on SE.
GAMs utterly unable of not acting like children for 10 minutes (Ultimate) : episode 537.
I get where Xeno is coming from, I really do, but its a shame to see someone that's this big in the community just absolutely dismantle and shit on pretty much the only person who has put any effort into trying to organize this race for years. It's brutal to know that Frosty literally has to draw a line somewhere, drew it in the only place he really can, and all the large influencers in the community are basically just saying "Get fucked hall monitor everyone is going to keep cheating lmao"
100% correct, which is why frosty backtracked
Basically the raid community (especially the hardcore part) is a joke, and they seem content with that, which means there's no reason to ever take anyone's claim of "skill" seriously because they can't prove they didn't cheat because it's no longer suspected, it's assumed.
Now comes the part where we see what Square-Enix does about it, given they've threatened the idea of not making any more Ultimates on the basis of "why bother" if this is how the content is treated. Alternately, Square-Enix may introduce their own cheats (which they've done with other Final Fantasy games) and any actual difficulty will become "optional" because that's what the playerbase clearly wants.
Turns out that in the end, the modbeasts weren't just hiding in the "Other" tab, and the next time Square-Enix simplifies something, it can't be wholly blamed on casuals.
Honestly, SE needs to stop having a stick up their butt about plugins. They clearly don't wish to spend the resource on the game to include the kinds of things even basic QoL plugins can do like NoClippy. So either support them in some official capacity like WoW does or spend money and implement themselves. People are not going to give up logs, no clippy, minor ui/fixes, and other such things. So call us all cheaters but I don't think I've met one PC player who doesn't use at least one plugin to do some kind of QoL fix.
Let's not be naïve; the intention is to ban visible TOS violations, not to ban mods. If an organization like MogTalk or Echo can be seen to exclude clear TOS violations it is more likely that SE would support or assist in future events. It's like the Tour de France: everyone is doping, everyone knows they're all doping, Don't go advertising and showing off your favorite Anabolic Steroids you fucking dumbasses! I think this is the underlying meaning to Frosty's post, he knows you can't get rid of mods.
You want to prevent cheating make em all play on console problem solved
Leave discord alone but can we just ban redditors
Yeah…there's definitely a tough time for describing the meaning of cheating in this game nowadays. Honestly, I do truly think it's impressive that people can be total purists to the game and still manage to clear difficult content such as this. It takes a lot of discipline and integrity to not lean on those programs just because "everyone's using them". There needs to be a clearer line, clearer rules to state what is clearly a matter of describing what is against TOS; and what is for all intents and purposes "cheating". And I'll be honest, I don't know what that answer should be, but it should be found.
I have a lot of respect for the people that do it as the game intended. I also respect the people that feel they need to have those tools to help them get the clear. It's their game, they're gonna play how they're gonna play. But in the end, it's also gonna be SE's call in regards to the WR. If they continue to let it happen, at the very least for WR, it's just gonna reflect that they're being hypocritical of people that use mods and get caught using them for any difficult content. So instead of getting mad at frosty or GRIND, we need to take the issue directly to SE and get the final answer. Get the rules endorsed, figure out what's gonna work and where, and figure out the best way for everyone involved to enjoy the game the way it was meant to be, instead of being left in such a grey area.
So – I'm gonna use fighting game tournaments as an example for why echo/frosty's event will most likely become the official race for all intents and purposes assuming no intervening factors. Simply put, this is what fighting games do, 100% of the time. Super Smash bros melee tournaments have been consistently denounced and sometimes even thrown cease and desists and nobody gives a shit what nintendo thinks. The only scenes where issues of legality and cheating were dealt with by companies are the ones (like Street Fighter 6 for exmaple) where companies are directly involved and funding the events. Instead, the people putting on the events, tournament organizers, brands working with the events, etc, are the ones making those decisions in lieu of the company that owns the IP. What SE thinks or does is secondary to what the community at large believes, and if they keep publicizing the races they will eventually be the predominant source of the WF race. More and more people will join the bandwagon of not caring who literally cleared first outside of a more moderated environment and it seems hilarious to think otherwise because no one else is broadcasting the shit. You, Me, and the other people deep into raiding might know the actual world first, but the majority will only care about the thing that's loud enough to reach them.
have the world race be regional lans with refs set up like in counter strikes rmrs problem solved 😎
Wanna do a world race do it on console a full 8 static in console no plug in you can do XD
bald take