I'd like to point out, counter to Lucy's argument, that button bloat is a Very Real Problem. She only mentions it in reference to controller players, but as the game continues to expand, they'll have to cut back on existing buttons to make room for new things going on. It may feel weird (or even bad) now, but a lot of this is bound to be future-proofing.
Simplifying a job isn’t necessarily a bad thing. The important thing is making the loop enjoyable, regardless of how many buttons it requires. Generally, the lower the action count, the easier it is to tune. Heck, if you can make a job’s loop simple but continuously fun, that’s the ideal target. You seem to be of the mind that a job is only fun if it’s complicated. Personally, I miss some of the aspects of pre-Endwalker summoner, but not enough that I dislike current summoner design. While it’s not perfect, one thing I can say without hesitation is I’m glad they reduced the button bloat for summoner.
I don't think the increased player numbers on SMN have anything to do with simplicity or even gameplay at all. It's just way cooler now, going into Ifrit or Titan sends out an atomic blast. Cool animations like that are EVERYTHING.
I am an old fart who plays on controller and can comfortably manage well over 32 skills using all 3 bars (single trigger, double tap, both triggers). I used to play kb/m but arthritis… 😂 I agree with you, Chair and others. They need to stop simplifying the rotations and use the other options to remove their perceived button bloat.
You seriously think it's because of controllers? lol. Even if cross hotbar wasn't enough for everything, which it is, expanded hold hotbar is another 16 placements which is easy to do and overkill. The problem is because they don't know what the hell matters to a job, simple as that. Why do you think jobs like black mage always have such good upkeep while monk was in the shadow realm huffing copium before EW, even then they lost positionals which was core to the job's identity. It's because no one on the team gives a shit or understands the jobs excluding a few pet favorites.
Eh I dont mind mo stuff on controller lol. I dont want them to dumb down the game anymore foreal, hell I didnt have a problem with all the buttons back in the day either lol, I adapted. Pretty sure they doing this for wow players lol. Get mad if you want but I definitely met alot of them that wanted rotations to be dumbed down.
Everything you said here was true, foreal the game is easy enough as is, no point n making it easier. Shoot we already got a crap ton of new players that still refuse to learn there basic rotation lmao, so thats not gunna help them if they cant or wont even learn the basics
When kaiten gets removed its going to leave a gaping blackhole on my hotbar, i have no idea what im going to put in its place as its such a core central skill every other skill is based around. I'll probably end up leaving it blank as it won't feel right putting anything else there. They also could have at least made the goken skill a crit for that aoe damage, what a damn shame.
As a PLD main I like that all the new buttons this expansion are just more confediore. Nothing else added to rotation is nice. Only thing I can think of changing is to put fast blade and riot blade on the same button, heck royal authority can go there too. Still have to pay attention to goring blade and atonement so it should be still fine and give us 2 more buttons because pally really needs more buttons. We have 9 for our physical stage, 3 for magic, 3 more for aoe, the heal, our 5 mitigation buttons, the gift mitigation, the raid wide mitigation, the invuln, sprint, the range attack and every other tank mechanic button. Only things I can take off my hotbar are shield bash and cover. Everything else has to be there. Only problem I can think of is early game would be so boring just spamming one single button until you get goring blade, but spamming 3 with no choice involved isn't much better.
I was gonna comment something funny but every time you say the name of a samurai skill all my thoughts are replaced with the same white noise that happens when i put my gunblade to my head and pull the funny boom button
Just what the doc prescribed, more Lucy making sense while making fun of stuff. XD
This is how it starts. They will bring back kaiten in 2-3 expansions and name it differently while introducing a job that reflects how fun SAM was at the beginning… Example A: Dark passanger being removed and returning as shadowbringer and being called a "new skill" … Kaiten will follow the same path and a job that is SAM but better will be introduced. (RPR, its DRK but better) SAM is my main dps, thought about swaping for RPR, but just hits too close to home. Hope SAM does not go the way DRK went.
Stoneskin being removed from healers and PLD, then drk getting an objectively worse version that needed multiple reworks over the years… And then sage getting something along the line of that worse version… I dont understand their game design, but meh
Also, we've been asking for a Living Dead rework since 2.0 heavensward. We get a stupid rework that is still for the most part useless in 6.1. As we DRKs say to live is to suffer. I dont expet DRK fixes before 8.1 tbh.
As former keyboard player, controller is better for movement games. Wasd or D-pad movement sucks. Need to strafe around the mob? Just focus target it like in dark souls! And there are soooo many tricks to make due with less buttons that dont make it jank like needing a second hand on the keyboard to hit all your buttons (looking at my sentinel in swtor back in the day. 72-seventy-two buttons to dominate pvp) Controller and mouse, master race XD i'd even take dual mouse tbh, but need alot of mouse buttons then.
This game just hasn't been the same for me ever since they reworked Scholar back in Shadowbringers. I check into the forums and watch vids occasionally to see if they ever bring back at least some of what Scholar lost. I would legit come back if they brought back SCH's dot gameplay. If the fairy had its own gcd that would be nice too, but the dots are the most important to me. No other job in the game really scratches the itch of pre-Shb SCH.
While I see your point and agree with it to an extent, you need to think beyond what was mentioned in the video. The quote of Yoshi-P thinking of the next 10 years is not about the story but the sustainability of the game itself. How do you think things will turn out if they keep adding abilities every expac like they have been when some jobs even now have or are on the verge of too much bloat? They first need to cut parts they deem unnecessary to be able to expand on the jobs in the future, and that is a process takes a lot of time, feedback and patience from everyone. While I say that I see the state of healers and I can only hope they are in the process of fixing that mess and not make the same mistakes with the other jobs Copium
Started dating RPR since it’s a job I really wanted but SAM was always my DPS main……my mind frame has definitely changed. You can feel the loss of damage no matter how much they same there wasn’t a damage loss and the EW version feels…forced. No longer do I have the joy of fishing for positionals to bloat myself with Kenki to weave the max amount of Shintens before storing gauge for Midare. Now it feels like there’s only one way to play SAM and although that isn’t a bad thing with new or reworked jobs, I think it’s horrible on SAM. Did I mention the damage loss…if I did, it deserves at least another two mentions….DAMAGE LOSS
To me it's extremely odd. I'm a console player and never experienced being overwhelmed with too many buttons. I don't think the change is to help console players. I think they are just trying to make it more simple then it needs to be. I honestly haven't saw a single samurai player complain about bloat. Se's mindset making jobs simpler truly confuses me
I think the best option is to make more difficult classes and less difficult one. Let there be classes that those of us who like the challenge can feel satisfied with while still having classes that people who aren't concerned about it can just pick up willy nilly. The thing that annoyed me most and still annoys me today is the card system for ASTRO, it was so fun. But now it's brain dead and I hate it so much.
As a relatively new player that came from Wow (god forgive me), the sheer amount of buttons kind of overwhelmed me at first. I remember playing Gunbreaker for this first time, absolutely loving the job and then getting kind of disheartened by the number of skills I had to add to my already full hotbar. But it made me adapt, bind more keys and think outside the box for ways to implement skills in places I would actually use and not just leave there. It was a little tough at first, but when I actually started using everything? That felt good, and I felt like I was becoming better at the game. They "removed" some skills for gnb (merged 3 into 1, really) and now I have two blank spaces in my hotbar lol. I had found a place for everything, so even if I put something else there my poor ol' brain couldn't take it. Oversimplifying everything may just lead to a lot of jobs losing their identity in the long term, and I really hope it doesn't ever come to that.
Just realized how long this comment is. Damn. Sorry about that lol
The bewildering thing is PlayStation players (have) out populated pc players, historically, not sure whose surpassed now I haven’t seen it yet. So this is (can be) a bit backwards. It seems the appeasement is for PC players while not alienating their console populace.
That is a bit of a poke, because the game was created for both and the appeasements are directed at both equally. On a pc population alone they wouldn’t be granted the funding they get nor would they enjoy even being a mention in top MMO’s of the current age. On a console population alone, they’d fare better for lack of competition. I suppose this is where the pc master race japes originate.
I play on pc, I just know which side of the bread has the most butter on it. Oh, and I also think they removed it due to upcoming changes to the class, to reduce button bloat now because it’s going to be resumed later, most likely with a completely different gameplay loop. That’s also something they’ve done historically. Besides, “button bloat” removing a single button, doesn’t make a lot of sense. Speaking historically they’ve often gone to the shortest answer, and while we pay 15$ a month, they’ve amassed worldwide notoriety and make millions, upon millions, upon millions of dollars, have designed the game we’re playing from the engine to the raw code to every line of dialog and every loop we love and hate, I expect as much as we’d like to think that our 15$ a month makes us professionals who know what’s best, I’m not driving a gold plated Ferrari and they could afford them in fleets, probably have some inkling as to what they’re doing.
I just sat in front of a training dummy and just practiced using actions/combos and switching crossbars until muscle memory kicked in. Then I took that and applied it. Once I got comfortable using them in real time without panicking I.e as a healer when the tank goes down or when you have to drop or gain aggro quickly as a tank, it was smooth sailing. I've gotten so fast I dont even need macros anymore.
As a controller player, I can honestly say that the controller part of this video is from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the more advanced parts of how to optimize controller play.
I have 48 actions I can activate without changing hotbars once. I don't think controllers are the cause of this, but rather the desire to flatten out the performance curve of all players across the board.
As a longtime WAR lover I’ve had issues with the skill removals/class tweaks for a very very long time(in SB they removed bloodbath from war which devasted our performance/survivability in all content until they patched health resto into steel cyclone..this also completely changed how to play the class) beyond that they just changed war almost entirely. Time was war was like holding back until you could release your inner beast(even the job quest line was about this)..Today it’s more build a bar and spam.
We also used to be a high hp self healing tanking with minimal defenses..No more
Classes are becoming far too similar for my tastes with the truly unique flavors of each being diluted into mush.
As for button bloat I’d have personally suggested they use traits to combine skills/effects such as they now do with multiple abilities across classes such as the various thunders for blm. But as is constant class reworks and ability removals is just too much like wow for my tastes(and it was a massive reason I left wow).
All in all I am giving it till my sun runs out in 3-4 months to decide if I’ll keep subbing at this point.
this video can only end very very well
hahaha
imagine ERPing…
I'd like to point out, counter to Lucy's argument, that button bloat is a Very Real Problem. She only mentions it in reference to controller players, but as the game continues to expand, they'll have to cut back on existing buttons to make room for new things going on. It may feel weird (or even bad) now, but a lot of this is bound to be future-proofing.
it's Lucy Pyre, i must like…
No rap T~T
Simplifying a job isn’t necessarily a bad thing. The important thing is making the loop enjoyable, regardless of how many buttons it requires. Generally, the lower the action count, the easier it is to tune. Heck, if you can make a job’s loop simple but continuously fun, that’s the ideal target. You seem to be of the mind that a job is only fun if it’s complicated. Personally, I miss some of the aspects of pre-Endwalker summoner, but not enough that I dislike current summoner design. While it’s not perfect, one thing I can say without hesitation is I’m glad they reduced the button bloat for summoner.
I don't think the increased player numbers on SMN have anything to do with simplicity or even gameplay at all.
It's just way cooler now, going into Ifrit or Titan sends out an atomic blast. Cool animations like that are EVERYTHING.
Dunce cap for a funny joke
Me seeing viera wearing a hat: wait. Thats illegal
I am an old fart who plays on controller and can comfortably manage well over 32 skills using all 3 bars (single trigger, double tap, both triggers). I used to play kb/m but arthritis… 😂 I agree with you, Chair and others. They need to stop simplifying the rotations and use the other options to remove their perceived button bloat.
"Spreadsheets are my body, logs are my blood." New favorite quote, right next to "Tits are life, ass is hometown. "
Remember the time when PLD was a 1-2-3 snooze fest while having the absolute dog-sh*t dps? yeah.. me neither. 😀
You seriously think it's because of controllers? lol. Even if cross hotbar wasn't enough for everything, which it is, expanded hold hotbar is another 16 placements which is easy to do and overkill.
The problem is because they don't know what the hell matters to a job, simple as that. Why do you think jobs like black mage always have such good upkeep while monk was in the shadow realm huffing copium before EW, even then they lost positionals which was core to the job's identity. It's because no one on the team gives a shit or understands the jobs excluding a few pet favorites.
Eh I dont mind mo stuff on controller lol. I dont want them to dumb down the game anymore foreal, hell I didnt have a problem with all the buttons back in the day either lol, I adapted. Pretty sure they doing this for wow players lol. Get mad if you want but I definitely met alot of them that wanted rotations to be dumbed down.
Everything you said here was true, foreal the game is easy enough as is, no point n making it easier. Shoot we already got a crap ton of new players that still refuse to learn there basic rotation lmao, so thats not gunna help them if they cant or wont even learn the basics
When kaiten gets removed its going to leave a gaping blackhole on my hotbar, i have no idea what im going to put in its place as its such a core central skill every other skill is based around. I'll probably end up leaving it blank as it won't feel right putting anything else there. They also could have at least made the goken skill a crit for that aoe damage, what a damn shame.
Condense Shoha/2, Oginami, and Guren/Senei and every SAM will be happy…..
As a PLD main I like that all the new buttons this expansion are just more confediore. Nothing else added to rotation is nice. Only thing I can think of changing is to put fast blade and riot blade on the same button, heck royal authority can go there too. Still have to pay attention to goring blade and atonement so it should be still fine and give us 2 more buttons because pally really needs more buttons. We have 9 for our physical stage, 3 for magic, 3 more for aoe, the heal, our 5 mitigation buttons, the gift mitigation, the raid wide mitigation, the invuln, sprint, the range attack and every other tank mechanic button. Only things I can take off my hotbar are shield bash and cover. Everything else has to be there. Only problem I can think of is early game would be so boring just spamming one single button until you get goring blade, but spamming 3 with no choice involved isn't much better.
I was gonna comment something funny but every time you say the name of a samurai skill all my thoughts are replaced with the same white noise that happens when i put my gunblade to my head and pull the funny boom button
Just what the doc prescribed, more Lucy making sense while making fun of stuff. XD
This is how it starts. They will bring back kaiten in 2-3 expansions and name it differently while introducing a job that reflects how fun SAM was at the beginning…
Example A:
Dark passanger being removed and returning as shadowbringer and being called a "new skill" … Kaiten will follow the same path and a job that is SAM but better will be introduced. (RPR, its DRK but better)
SAM is my main dps, thought about swaping for RPR, but just hits too close to home. Hope SAM does not go the way DRK went.
Stoneskin being removed from healers and PLD, then drk getting an objectively worse version that needed multiple reworks over the years… And then sage getting something along the line of that worse version… I dont understand their game design, but meh
Also, we've been asking for a Living Dead rework since 2.0 heavensward. We get a stupid rework that is still for the most part useless in 6.1. As we DRKs say to live is to suffer. I dont expet DRK fixes before 8.1 tbh.
As former keyboard player, controller is better for movement games. Wasd or D-pad movement sucks. Need to strafe around the mob? Just focus target it like in dark souls! And there are soooo many tricks to make due with less buttons that dont make it jank like needing a second hand on the keyboard to hit all your buttons (looking at my sentinel in swtor back in the day. 72-seventy-two buttons to dominate pvp)
Controller and mouse, master race XD i'd even take dual mouse tbh, but need alot of mouse buttons then.
Glad that i'm not a SAM main : x RIP… But i do play Ninja…
This game just hasn't been the same for me ever since they reworked Scholar back in Shadowbringers. I check into the forums and watch vids occasionally to see if they ever bring back at least some of what Scholar lost. I would legit come back if they brought back SCH's dot gameplay. If the fairy had its own gcd that would be nice too, but the dots are the most important to me. No other job in the game really scratches the itch of pre-Shb SCH.
While I see your point and agree with it to an extent, you need to think beyond what was mentioned in the video. The quote of Yoshi-P thinking of the next 10 years is not about the story but the sustainability of the game itself. How do you think things will turn out if they keep adding abilities every expac like they have been when some jobs even now have or are on the verge of too much bloat? They first need to cut parts they deem unnecessary to be able to expand on the jobs in the future, and that is a process takes a lot of time, feedback and patience from everyone.
While I say that I see the state of healers and I can only hope they are in the process of fixing that mess and not make the same mistakes with the other jobs Copium
AH! Monk Main. Welcome to our life twice a xpac.
Started dating RPR since it’s a job I really wanted but SAM was always my DPS main……my mind frame has definitely changed.
You can feel the loss of damage no matter how much they same there wasn’t a damage loss and the EW version feels…forced. No longer do I have the joy of fishing for positionals to bloat myself with Kenki to weave the max amount of Shintens before storing gauge for Midare. Now it feels like there’s only one way to play SAM and although that isn’t a bad thing with new or reworked jobs, I think it’s horrible on SAM.
Did I mention the damage loss…if I did, it deserves at least another two mentions….DAMAGE LOSS
may the god bless Dev team to finally, finally, someday they will satisfy ALLLLL the player.
To me it's extremely odd. I'm a console player and never experienced being overwhelmed with too many buttons. I don't think the change is to help console players. I think they are just trying to make it more simple then it needs to be. I honestly haven't saw a single samurai player complain about bloat. Se's mindset making jobs simpler truly confuses me
I think the best option is to make more difficult classes and less difficult one. Let there be classes that those of us who like the challenge can feel satisfied with while still having classes that people who aren't concerned about it can just pick up willy nilly.
The thing that annoyed me most and still annoys me today is the card system for ASTRO, it was so fun. But now it's brain dead and I hate it so much.
2:23 I have ascended
As a relatively new player that came from Wow (god forgive me), the sheer amount of buttons kind of overwhelmed me at first. I remember playing Gunbreaker for this first time, absolutely loving the job and then getting kind of disheartened by the number of skills I had to add to my already full hotbar. But it made me adapt, bind more keys and think outside the box for ways to implement skills in places I would actually use and not just leave there. It was a little tough at first, but when I actually started using everything? That felt good, and I felt like I was becoming better at the game.
They "removed" some skills for gnb (merged 3 into 1, really) and now I have two blank spaces in my hotbar lol. I had found a place for everything, so even if I put something else there my poor ol' brain couldn't take it. Oversimplifying everything may just lead to a lot of jobs losing their identity in the long term, and I really hope it doesn't ever come to that.
As a SMN I still prefer pre-Endwalker …
Just realized how long this comment is. Damn. Sorry about that lol
The bewildering thing is PlayStation players (have) out populated pc players, historically, not sure whose surpassed now I haven’t seen it yet. So this is (can be) a bit backwards. It seems the appeasement is for PC players while not alienating their console populace.
That is a bit of a poke, because the game was created for both and the appeasements are directed at both equally. On a pc population alone they wouldn’t be granted the funding they get nor would they enjoy even being a mention in top MMO’s of the current age. On a console population alone, they’d fare better for lack of competition. I suppose this is where the pc master race japes originate.
I play on pc, I just know which side of the bread has the most butter on it. Oh, and I also think they removed it due to upcoming changes to the class, to reduce button bloat now because it’s going to be resumed later, most likely with a completely different gameplay loop. That’s also something they’ve done historically. Besides, “button bloat” removing a single button, doesn’t make a lot of sense. Speaking historically they’ve often gone to the shortest answer, and while we pay 15$ a month, they’ve amassed worldwide notoriety and make millions, upon millions, upon millions of dollars, have designed the game we’re playing from the engine to the raw code to every line of dialog and every loop we love and hate, I expect as much as we’d like to think that our 15$ a month makes us professionals who know what’s best, I’m not driving a gold plated Ferrari and they could afford them in fleets, probably have some inkling as to what they’re doing.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE
Nice video Lucy, but may I ask why did your character have to sniff his fingers so often? 😮
I just sat in front of a training dummy and just practiced using actions/combos and switching crossbars until muscle memory kicked in. Then I took that and applied it. Once I got comfortable using them in real time without panicking I.e as a healer when the tank goes down or when you have to drop or gain aggro quickly as a tank, it was smooth sailing. I've gotten so fast I dont even need macros anymore.
So we need to have a discussion about that voice, rq, m'kay?
As a controller player, I can honestly say that the controller part of this video is from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the more advanced parts of how to optimize controller play.
I have 48 actions I can activate without changing hotbars once. I don't think controllers are the cause of this, but rather the desire to flatten out the performance curve of all players across the board.
Here is to hoping that Kaiten gets added to just be a part of your Ijutsu animations
As a longtime WAR lover I’ve had issues with the skill removals/class tweaks for a very very long time(in SB they removed bloodbath from war which devasted our performance/survivability in all content until they patched health resto into steel cyclone..this also completely changed how to play the class) beyond that they just changed war almost entirely. Time was war was like holding back until you could release your inner beast(even the job quest line was about this)..Today it’s more build a bar and spam.
We also used to be a high hp self healing tanking with minimal defenses..No more
Classes are becoming far too similar for my tastes with the truly unique flavors of each being diluted into mush.
As for button bloat I’d have personally suggested they use traits to combine skills/effects such as they now do with multiple abilities across classes such as the various thunders for blm. But as is constant class reworks and ability removals is just too much like wow for my tastes(and it was a massive reason I left wow).
All in all I am giving it till my sun runs out in 3-4 months to decide if I’ll keep subbing at this point.
I don't like new summoner
Dragon Kick Meta Cringe