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7:34 to play devils advocate, when you ask how can this be done with 20 people and no addon. it really isn't a hard solution, you just move to a pre-decided area and respond to the mechanic/debuff by moving anti-clockwise as a group. the addon is objectively dumbing down the brainwork+teamwork required here by just looking at a tomtom arrow.
I agree addons don't play the game for you to the extent a lot of people that don't play WoW seem to think, but they certainly do remove any form of personal brainwork that need to go into the mechanics, you end up just reacting to what the WA says that pops up on your screen. I very very rarely have to use my brain when playing wow, its all about reaction. This is what people mean when they say that weakauras are playing the game for you.
0:00 "You don't need addons. I do mythic raids without them" – 8:07 "WoW fights are designed around addons and half the fights would be impossible without them"
4:46 "The addon will only tell you to move, but that's all it does. It won't really tell you anything else" – 7:18 shows addons that show timers of attacks, which direction to move, the name of the skills, who has the debuffs on them
I'm very confused by the contradictions in the video. I tried rewatching a few times.
11:14 I thought that Azhara fight looked difficult but when you showed that you had debuffs telling you it just sounds like any savage/ultimate fight. You don't need co-ordination, you just do what your debuff tells you
7:45 I might not be understanding the mechanic properly but it looks extremely simple. Each player looks at their debuffs and react accordingly to a pre assigned movement. If you have the debuff move right if you don't move left and then everyone rotates counter clockwise. The number of people shouldn't matter, you could have 100 people and the solution would be the same.
7:43 you could just watch that debuff? the only way it would require an addon is if both debuffs looked the exact same
11:30 this just sounds directly comparable to a trio mechanic from an ultimate. it's really not that different from some of what we get in our hardest fights. it seems more like wow's main issue for mythic is ux, not necessarily anything related to the mechanic itself. I'd really loooooove to see a longform video some day analyzing the differences between the design of the highest end content from the perspective of a competitive wow player who also clears ultis
13:38 no, no you really don't. not when you're doing ultis and most savage fights.
I haven't been able to follow WoW mechanics well in many years, and since I stopped playing it's gotten so much worse. Thank goodness for casters because I love watching the RWF 😅
I am looking forward to seeing you tackle some of FF14's hardest content. There certainly are comparable mechanics to what you showcased with Queen Azshara here. I think FF14 is just way more natively readable, and the fights are carefully designed such that well thought out strategies can drastically reduce the amount of on-the-fly thinking each player has to do, but I feel like you're slightly underestimating the demand some Savage and Ultimate mechanics can have in terms of time to react and how much you can't fully predict up-front (i.e. you can't always just memorise every permutation – each player needs to understand the mechanic and work out what they personally need to do each time.)
Having said that, I can't imagine how frustrating that Queen Azshara fight would be if one player of 20 can fuck it up for everyone. Some people are mentioning Baldesion Arsenal and Delubrum Savage, which ARE difficult high-player count raids (especially the latter at release), but there are very few mechanics in those fights where the minor mistake of one random player can wipe the raid. Those that do operate in that fashion are very easy to actually execute – with a confident player able to reliably take responsibility every time, or in the case of random selections the "difficulty" really just being the "oh shit I'm responsible" feeling. Other than that, personal mistakes usually just get you killed and everyone else can keep going. Of course, you eventually need everyone to nail it if you want to beat enrage but there's rarely the frustration of that one braindead idiot getting you all killed every pull so you can't even practice the whole fight. 8-mans are already frustrating enough for me when it's clear one player doesn't quite understand a mechanic well enough to get through it correctly the majority of the time, so you feel like you're just rolling the dice until they get the "easy pattern."
To clear some things up. I do feel that WoW addons are too much. They should be restricted more heavily than they currently are. I also feel WoW’s telegraphing needs to be improved and more clear to the average player.
However the aim of this video is to show partly why addons are present in the game to the degree that they are. Not to defend addons just to provide clarity
Havent played WoW in 10-12 years but i understand why you need addons. But what i dont understand is why play a game where you need third party tools just to be able to play.
I know they cant do this but in a perfect world the devs should design the fights for non use of addons and if you still use addons its up to you. Did you kill the boss on you first try with addons?? To bad….you should play it without. But yes i know they could never do that.
if a game needs mods to function than that game is flawed and should have included those mods in base game. and ff14 has 40+ player savage encounters too, and no adds incvolved…you just have to learn where to be, thats all. if you cant show that from the game and need adds, then the game is flawed from the start. What if i can't put on mods? am i banned? i cant play your game? thats just stupid. Mods are there to make the experience more enjoyable, like looking better or adding new stories like it does in skyrim, not to be a necesitty for you to play the game.
Good thoughts
@Psybear_tv another thing that makes the raid exp even better than just MINE(minimum ilvl no echo) is just no echo and underequiping your party so the gear lvl of your party just matches the entry ilvl of the content. this way you can also play as lvl 90 character, but gear ilvl is ALOT in ff, like in wow too, how lower to worse your dps and hps are. so you can basically do content of lvl 50 without echo unsync and just dropping your gear ilvl very high down. this makes the content still pretty hard but you can play it with all your skills available on max lvl. but you have way lower hps as on just ilvl sync.
im also pretty hyped for your reaction to the next heavensward raid aswell as to the alliance raids! keep it up and get stronger! you will get more headache on solving mechanics in the future!
and to the topic of the video, ff raid and boss design is made to play without any help of third party tools, as we also have ps players it need to be clearly seeable and understandable for them. i mean ff also has basically the tools wow has, and its 1:1, just different ip basially, but you can clear any fight in the game with just thinking and solving overtime. this is why ff raids are made for 8 ppls on normal, extreme, savage and ultimate, with ultimate being the most complicated and rewarding content out of them…and ultimates are basically only just for the joy of doing them, there is no meaning to do them aside a title and a glam weapon afterall. but it needs the most skill of every single player(aside uwu) to bring them down. same for savage, but savage is slower than ultimates and feature mostly 1 to max 2 bosses per instance.
I appreciate the comparison of how each game visually represents their respective fight's telegraphs. Necessitating the need for tool assistance or not. I only recall Preach going into as much depth.
I only played up till halfway through Warlords, so my experience with addons it limited to that point, at one point there was a mod that did try to telegraph AOEs (might have been deadly boss mods) but Blizzard cracked down on it because they considered putting any kind of graphical indicator on the field to be taking things too far, like you could have timers for boss abilities, audio cues for stuff that happens, even addons that let healers cleanse/decurse with a single button press, but playing a red circle on the floor where a poison cloud is going to appear could get you banned.
Also, shoutout to anyone who remembers Baron Geddon and having the majority of the raid stand on the rune the entire fight with anyone who becomes the living bomb running to the wall so they don't die to fall damage.
There's definitely no shortage to "look at debuff and immediately react" content in FF, it is pretty commonplace in high end raiding (including every single ultimate as far as I'm aware.) I can imagine it being a lot more chaotic with 20 people though. It's already very likely that within FFs 8 man groups there's bound to be a weak link or 2, I can't imagine trying to herd 20 people. People do bring up DRS and BA but I will tell you that in those raids you can get through if you have a few people who really know what they're doing, which is usually how it is. (and ofc the callouts.)
Addons are for chumps. People use them in FF14 too. Never understood the point of progging a boss with a little tool that tells you what to do. I would feel like such a fraud winning that way.
7:30 If this was FFXIV the arrow would not be an addon but be ingame as part of the boss mechanic in Normal Story Raid difficulty but removed in a Savage difficulty. 😅
The issue with addons is that the game makes such a bad job at telling you important information that addon's will simply make it clearer for you. "Oh X is happening? What is X. Ah, okay got it, what to do with it?" – Weakaura will tell you, so does DBM or BigWigs. The issue is that the devs have to take into account that people have such tools and need to develop encounters based on what intel players get. If you then don't want to use addons in a fight which already is a clusterfuck, you're double screwed.
Another fact is that they're not always open for public if you remember the Mythic RTW in the end of WoD. Method won because they had a weakaura which basically made the most hardest mechanic of the boss redundant, the other guild did because it was developed by someone from Method.
The only solution is to let bosses be bosses, develop new bosses without addons in mind and ban them entirely, or don't. There cannot be a middleway in my opinion.
In Ultimates like UWU, DSR, and TOP, automakers are common. Basically players memorize the 4-6 possible combinations of mechanics that they could have personal responsibility for, but there is an addon that will put a number or symbol over the player’s head denoting which mechanic they actually have.
So instead of reading their debuffs or watching the boss etc. they just see the number they got from the automaker and do their mechanic. It serves the same function of reducing the reaction time needed.
I feel that SE is also starting to go into an arm’s race with FF players because the AM is now very common in Ults and addons are getting much more common.
In the past, players could move floor markers during combat, but players used an addon that moved the floor markers around in TEA trivializing some mechanics in the final phase. The devs took away this ability. I think the devs might also take away the ability to mark players during combat to stop players from using the AM.
Also, not to minimize the difficulty of that Queen Ashara fight but every single ultimate has trios where you get your debuff/s and have to immediately react and execute with WAY more intricate mechanics that just “go forward and afk” or run in a circle. The only difference is trios are often downtime where the boss teleports away and you don’t have to DPS
WoW looks like straight garbo I do not see how people play that shit.
Hey Bro. The Discord invitation link is not valid. 🙂
I done raids in wow. I done raids in ffxiv. Mods make it easier in wow but as psy says then becomes a necessity. The decision to not have mods in ffxiv makes it kinda more old school with actually knowing the mechanics and i agree the bright colours and clear definition of AoE stuff in wow is just piss poor.
add ons? Yes. Definitely
dont understand why they cant just take a patch and streamline things.ffs cant that scumpany just have meeting and discuss all the mechs and come up with a solution. FF ended up going back and introducing some basic mechs early on. (was soooo helpful to teach players)
My favourite thing about the clarity of the floor telegraphs is that in FF14 (not sure of other games) your hitbox is smaller than your character like bullet hell games, so you can have fun doing completely unnecessery things like a single sidestep to dodge between 2 half room aoes just to see what you can get away with. Healers will love the anxiety of watching you do it!
Raids were designed before add-ons, so that means all raids can be completed without them.