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Original video by Taliesin & Evitel TV โ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N75B3OfNf_Y
source
nothing but death for a company like blizzard.
Simple, itโs all about mindset. One is extremely on corporate greed while the other knows a satisfied customer base = money.
the difference between wow and ffxiv is a cardboard assassin belt. FF took out belts because they are useless space for glam, and WoW has a belt that can tank for you momentarily. these are the differences.
Taliesin criticizing WoW? wow indeed
I think this comes down to old MMO class design vs modern MMO class design.
We've traded freedom of choice (or the illusion of freedom of choice) for balance. And if FFXIV, we also have a different kind of choice, instead of deciding between specs, we are deciding between jobs. That's why this game stands out from other MMOs, we not only have balance but options.
The sad part is, it shouldn't be commendable for devs to respect their own playerbase and play their own game. That's supposed to be a given.
Blizzard used to do that way back when. Oh how the mighty have fallen.
I wanna say quazii, this camera angle and background is so much better than before.
I think when a meta is too much strong/broken it's actually like removing freedom of choice, because in some situations you'll have to play with the meta
my opinion here
– on communication, I think that one strength of in PLL is that the dev team has a clear scope of what would be in the presentation and show clear plan for the future.
If class balance problem can actually cause that much problem to WoW dev communication, then I thnk there is more fundamental problem in dev team.
– in term of class/job balance, WoW definitely has way more complexity, including specs, gears (trinkets, set bonus), and whatever external system that is put on top of that.
Thing is, many of the problem that pop up should already been known by the dev even before the patch goes up on alpha/beta/PTR testing, and in many cases, feedbacks during those testing did not result in meaningful improvement.
Also, in many cases, the changes made by WoW dev can really be visualized by swinging pendulum, going from one extreme to another. Over/undertuning, Big addition/total removal, etc.
i have my own rule: if the group doesn't wipe on enrage there's no need to worry about meta classes, specs, gear or whatever, practice untill everything is "perfect" (wow or ffxiv doesn't matter wich mmorpg you play) but if enrage is a problem and everyone is doing their best without fails then yes maybe it's time to improve something based on meta stuff. i think that's the healthiest mindset in my opinion, you have the choice to play how you like, with whatever you like.
WoW is designed to wasting your time in general that why they nerfed everything so late look how they nerf sepulcher , they are totally disrespecting ppl who have done the raid before huge nerf over huge nerf.
I think tali is ignorant when it comes to FFXIV combat. The quote alone "FFXIV has zero choice" is very far from the truth. Becuase we have slightly longer GCD and various oGCD in between, the complexity comes from harmony of the group. Whether your buff window aligns with your static or not. And we can adjust that by switching to different gear sets which are in identical ilvl. I think the guy at bellular explained it well. FFXIV combat is like a symphony. It is up to you to line up with your party static. And we have gear sets and materia to make that change.
From the sounds of it, WoW doesn't actually have choice; it just has the illusion of choice, which is simply deception.
I think it's important to differentiate between actual choice and the illusion of having a choice.
He kept making WoW seem like you have much more choice there, but you really don't. Either you play a meta build or you get kicked out of the group.
It's like going to a restourant with 20 things on the menu, but 19 of them are actual crap. So you don't really have a choice.
While in FF it's true that within a spec you don't have a lot of customization options, you won't ever get kicked because of the spec you play.
So I'd argue that just by the fact that you can actually choose whatever spec you bring you actually have more choice than in WoW.
Also this isn't the biggest difference between FF and WoW. The biggest difference is that FF is in it for the long run, respects the players time, the devs play the game and are as transparent as possible.
The concept of standardizing everything, also, is probably a large part in why Blue Mage is a limited job/side content than an actual, regular functional job. I'm fairly certain Yoshi-P stated he NEVER wanted a point where if he introduced something in public groups/not premades that we'd never have to face "YOU MUST HAVE X, Y AND Z" or be booted from said group promptly.
Being someone who enjoyed WOTLK with its 75 talent tree. There was something endearing about hybrid classes or tweaking a cookie cutter meta to fit your playstyle. On the other hand it also detracts from people being able to play the class effectively during the learning process, and where time is precious that doesn't make a rewarding game to play. I'm far more willing to try any job in ffxiv without worrying about my talents at all vs games where talents are chosen. Nobody wants to be suboptimal and set builds with a little materia options is ideal. I play a fast casting SUM while another buffed damage. We're both meta friendly and that's the difference between ff and wow. It's far too easy to ruin the game experience with talent choice.
My 2 cents about WoW classes have more to balance than FFXIV therefore theres no content is they both have separate teams for jobs/classes from other content. Now that FFXIV has pvp as well to balance, how come we can get island sanctuary/variant dungeons/ultimate fights/housing/etc and in WoW I can't get anything but a raid and just a zone with rep grinds in it? Torghast, sure we have that but what else? And WoW is suppose to have a bigger budget than FFXIV and I think it's just comes down to management. Yoshi-P did more with a fewer people back when he was building ARR than WoW devs are doing atm and I think it just comes down to managing your teams.
I'm not gonna make it complicated in my opinion. But in keeping it very simple, FF14 Devs vs Blizzard Devs show that they care, care about the players, care about the players feedback, care about their community and just show that they care by the time and effort they put into communicating with their player base. Yes, you may not get everything you ask for, but you still know that the Devs are listening to you. Blizzard oon the other hand, well we all know what they do.
The more frequent live letters produced by Final Fantasy XIV also give the producers and Developers feedback in the comment sections that they can use to make any minor adjustment that they may need to make in their development during that roadmap. Usually they give us plenty of heads up that a feature is coming and the community usually gives plenty of reaction to that feature. So the live letters keep us informed and also keep the developers and Yoshi P informed about how we feel about what they're doing it's very good symbiotic relationship
The amount of devevelopment resources that are spent on all the "balancing" shenanigans is insane. Imagine those resources were spent on actual game content.
When talking about this issue, Taliesin keeps mentioning its for the "high-end players/content". There is exactly the problem. If you devote the bulk of your resources to constantly managing the "high-end" stuff (specs, raid tiers, playerpower this and that) that only a fraction of players give a damn about, there is no wonder that the more casual players drop your game.
More complex does not equate to more fun.
Make the base game fun and enjoyable for the majority of the playerbase. You can always add complexity later on.
They are the developers of the game. They can do whatever the hell they want. It is a homegrown problem they can fix. YoshiP and his team have worked their asses off to create this situation where they can "talk about the things they want to talk about" in the live letters. Don't make it seem like the WoW devs have no agency in this or just can't help themselves because of their situation and what not. It is a game design issue.
If the mindset of WoW is "optimize and find the best spec and just play the best," then WoW is very fun for the top level that's doing the research and experimentation, and then below that the only choice players have is "play optimally or don't."
What a lot of people don't get who give this argument is that a lot of players engage on a core level with their class fantasy, who play a spec because it's their spec, not just because it's optimal. And it's not just "RPers who don't care about gameplay," it's a lot of players who care about the aesthetic and feel of their character. It's why you have so many loyal mains of every different job in FFXIV even when switching between them is as smooth as it could possibly be. When you prevent someone from playing the game because the option they like best isn't good enough, and it's not just "you built wrong" but "you chose a bad spec entirely," I can definitely get where the frustration comes from.
people talk about having freedom of choice when the majority of people just let a small subsection of the community math everything out and just cookie cutter it. I played when they had long talent trees, the majority of people just used the optimal build, there was very little if any experimentation. which is why I laugh when people go on and on about player choice in wow. they even removed the fluff from the talent trees and gave you several rows of three talents. what did people do? they mathed out which was the optimal of the three and everyone took that skill with little to no difference between players.
so I find it laughable when I see videos claiming that wow is so intricate and its hard to balance when most people just take the cookie build for most content, maybe swapping a talent here or a talent there based on a fight or two. even the covenants were "are you a destruction warlock? do you raid? take this covenant and these skills, or else you are going to be trash." this so-called choice is an illusion hidden in a maze of mirrors. I find XIVs clear cut design much more appealing, at least when they say "this is a dragoon" you know what to expect and the developers are not pretending every dragoon will be unique with placebo talent trees making people think there will be a hundred different versions of High Jump when theres really only one.
I've always felt that WoW talent trees and skill acquisitions were a poor design for an MMO, even back in vanilla.
Blizzard is one big fat lie factory.
The complexity of WoW's gear is not multiplicative, it's exponential. So even if they can peel back one or two layers of that complexity it will make their job so much easier but will still give the players the illusion* of choice. (*Illusion because most just follows the meta anyway) ๐
I think Tali is spot on here.
Something else that I think gets lost in the conversation here is the amount of time a player has to spend in both games changing jobs or classes to better suit or role they may want to play or their guild may need.
NFF 14 you just change jobs and gearing up that new job is a much much faster process than it is in WoW. In WoW, in addition to leveling up your character and getting the appropriate gear from whatever dungeons or raids you do, you also have to get conduit and legendary items which can be an incredible time intensive process.
But otherwise I wholly agree with Tali here
Let's assume a player only has one character they really play. So all this work they do on balancing 18 classes, the average player only sees 1/18th of that work. If they make new content, everyone sees that.
you said it yourself, passionate developers, thats it , wow developers don't care
Yeah I remember when I tried WoW. I wanted to pick the skills that I thought looked cool on the talent tree only to be laughed at by people I ran into . "oh that skill is garbage. If you can't lookup a build online, you should just quit." and so on. Maybe having too much freedom in a multiplayer game is a bad thing. It devolves into "if your build isn't mathematically pure, it's not worth playing." Maybe then that option shouldn't be in the game to begin with.
With so many choices, there ends up being no choice in the end.
Ohโฆ. Ho ho ho ho.. this is so wow andies trigger inducing topic lol.. this is good video..
This is why I enjoy and appreciate ffxiv and warframe, the devs
Taliesin thinks all classes in WoW are viable. I think he means "playable" as in when you push buttons numbers appear. Because they sure as fuck aren't all viable.
Talisen is one of those content creators, that want FFXIV to be just like World of Warcraft. "I want more variance, etc in FFXIV since that's what drives me to play World of Warcraft."
Edit: Talisen is slightly wrong, World of Warcraft and their developers have always gone with a Flavor of the Month Class. I feel the Evoker will be basically the same thing until the next expansion, it will be absolutely busted in PVE/PVP content.
Double Edit: I might as well suspect, everyone is wondering why I am editing this post more. It's because I figured out something that differs between FFXIV and World of Warcraft.
World of Warcraft's Developers = Flavor of the Month | Dragonflight's Flavor of the Season Class = Evoker.
World of Warcraft's Players = The Casuals want everything to be viable but are pushed to the design of the game. Specifically, my type of casual since I would LOVE if everything was viable in World of Warcraft since it's a pain in the ass otherwise.
Final Fantasy 14's Developers = Everything is viable and everything can complete the hardest content with little to no problems.
Final Fantasy 14's Players = Trying to enforce a Flavor of the Month in a game that there isn't a Flavor of the Month design in the game.
Even back in Heavensward when Warriors and Dark Knights were WAY better than Paladins, as a Paladin I still never got turned away from a group.
This reminds me of something in WoW Asmon watched recently, some guy using a battle toad and specific things to one shot people. Not only it's harder to balance, but the number of interactions is bound to create problems as well.
Personally I prefer 14's way of handling classes. Yes, customizing your class feels good, but it feels good for as long as it works. The moment the game forces you to optimize in a certain way because otherwise you'll be hitting a dead end, it's the moment that the class customization as a game mechanism becomes useless.
This applies to all games, for example Path of Exile. What's the point of allowing millions of options if in the end you'll be following a guide of one of the dozen builds that work? If in order to be able to experience all of the game's content you HAVE to play in a certain way, why then have the option to do whatever you want? Just give the player an amount of preconstructed options with unique gameplay and let them try which one they like.
WoWโs variety has always been one of its greatest strengths along with one of its greatest weaknesses. As for xiv i think the most strict meta we will see is in the new savage dungeons. There are some jobs that are just plain better at dungeon content (regardless of how easy it is). For instance WAR is the best dungeon tank and itโs not even close. Also well definitely true that every job is very viable in all content alot of groups definitely prefer you to play whatโs best. Like picking a MCH over a BRD for your phys range spot for instance.
I agree that all classes should be viable for endgame play in WoW. I don't think it's fair to lock out classes in that way, especially if you're creating false player agency and choice. You're basically telling players they are wrong for liking a class and it's playstyle because they will never be as good or viable as the people who just brainlessly follow the meta. On top of that, forcing them to make an alt just to play as one of those meta classes, even if they don't personally like how it plays, to get into endgame play effects the morale of a player. Lastly, if you're going to have a handful of jobs that you make absolutely useless in endgame play, what is the point of having them in the game to begin with? Just cut them out and leave what's meta. We'll see how many people will still want to play after that.
On a technical-behind-the-scenes level I think he's correct, also alongside the system of scaling/evergreen content vs no scaling/obsolete content. Experientially it IS probably the story because that's what you see as the facing day to day activity.
Personally I always believe in the saying "Bring the player, not the job". The homogenization of each job in FFXIV allow players to concentrate more on their ability to master a particular job rather than worrying over the different spec and gears. Even when MCH rDPS was at its lowest at the start of EW, I rather bring a FC mate of mine who main MCH into any high end game raids because of his mastery in that job over any "meta" jobs.
Character balance isn't just a problem. WoW thinks this is how they make the big money by making more and more complicated systems. It would take such a large change in thinking to do anything else.
Ffxiv wants to make a good game, wow wants all of your money