Dawntrail buffed Tenacity by a bunch! But is it enough? Let me explain!
My Endwalker Stats Discussion series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stgUbtFKu74&list=PLTuST9t3GXW-ezY1Er9XU2u1y14713lwL&index=2
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Music Used:
FFXIV Dawntrail – Starless Skyline
#ffxiv #dawntrail
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:42 Tenacity in Endwalker
02:52 How is Tenacity in Dawntrail?
04:08 Why would you pick Tenacity?
06:25 An Additional Damage Multiplier
10:03 When do you NEED that much Damage Reduction?
12:34 Is Tenacity Still Bad?
13:33 Insurance Policy Effect
15:21 When is Tenacity GOOD?
17:17 Fun Fact
source
Hmmm. I never put DH on my tank's since those stats are the lowest, like 300-500 range.
i aint about to waste my meld on it. i just meld more crit and detrm… but i am not a raider or anything just normal stuff to ex stuff and never had problems with dmg. So i wonder if DH would help at all?
I do the same on my healers.
Find it a shame, that as a stat that – according to the description – only affects tanks they still won't buff this to make it more in line with Det to be more enticing. Situationally, yes it is, but ideally it still isn't over other meld options where you won't be level synced. Wouldn't necessarily break the game since, again, only tanks are supposed to gain from tenacity stat, but that would make too much sense I guess.
A lot of the problem with DR is when you have enough to survive, as well as an answer for something, it loses value. A majority of the questions will be "did you end up on the floor?" if the answer is no, then doing more damage is always going to be more valuable due to boss dying faster = less chance for the boss to kill you with something.
This is often why damage reductions fall into two categories. Absolutely useless, or absolutely necessary. There really is no in between with it. Even if you factor in the cost of a healer being forced to heal, due to, say, it being mechanically required, as long as you have enough to survive, more becomes fluff and loses value in terms of damage. Damage being useful 95% of the time since a boss dying faster means less chances for them to kill you.
Tenacity as a stat just needs to be removed. There isn't really a world in which they can rework it to make it more valuable than direct hit (tanks can't get direct hit) or crit (warrior specifically gains a bigger bonus from it), or determination.
don't care, me like when number go bigger
The problem with this game's stats is that because it is such a dps centric encounter system, the only stats that are good are the stats that increase your dps the most, which happens to be Critical Hit for everyone and Direct Hit for tanks because it's a core dps stat that they're just missing from their gear for no reason. If tanks had a set direct hit rate that could not be increased or decreased, then tenacity would be worth melding because it would need to be a stat to fill in some pieces of gear that are capped in det and crit after melds.
Ultimately though, the problem with TEN is that it doesn't belong in a meta that exclusively focuses on enrages because Yoshi P refuses to make the raid complexity anything more than that; if a tank is taking too much damage during raids, then it is a player skill issue that can easily fixed with some adjustments to defensive cooldowns and healer mit.
They won't improve healer playstyles and they won't increase raid damage output, so all we're left with is just building to kill the bosses as quickly as possible. It's a system that's functional but it has the depth of a puddle.
It's a shame too, because the fight design in this game is really fun. It's too bad that the gearing systems in XIV can't also be fun, for more reasons than just this one. (Why are we still unable to gear more than one class in an MMO that proudly boasts more than 1 playable class per character?)
Meanwhile piety still not buff yet
They really need to make all stats worthwhile and slightly alter your over all playstyle
I tried Tenacity one week for my weekly Savage (1-3) runs and I didn't notice a big difference without hard data. I checked FFLogs my party uploaded, and my parse was similar to other weeks (making me think I performed my rotation better to achieve the same damage with this weaker materia). I BARELY noticed a small difference in damage reduction. I DID feel like healers' spells were hitting me harder though.
your got to remember tho that auto crit moves don't get the crit dmg + from crit material, but DH
So really, the only stat a tank desperately wants to avoid (once you've hit a comfort tier) is skill speed now and avoided like the plague if you want an omni-tank set?
5:45 Yes! This is why I decided to try out Tenacity materia, and I think healers get distracted by mechanics and forget how heavy the auto-attacks can be.
It's 02:14am
I'm drunk
I've bought an alt set of gear and (penta)melded tenacity
Healer loved it
Got 3 comms
Didn't lose much dmg
Tender Valley
TENACITY IS THE NEW CRIT – TANKS, MELD TENACITY TODAY! INCREASE HEALER DPS! HEALERS NEED YOU
First off) While we are still talking about Tenacity; Is Skill Speed still better than Tenacity…?
Second) Here's my hot take on Tenacity; Dark Knight needs it because Dark Knight has sucked keeping itself alive ever since the Shadowbringers re-work. And before people say "bUt ThE bLaCkEsT nIgHt Is StIlL pReTtY gOoD!" let me remind that The Blackest Night cost 3k MP, that you could have used for more Damage, and before anyone says "bUt ThAt'S wHaT dArK aRtS iS fOr!" I also need to remind you that you can ONLY get Dark Arts IF the shield breaks, not WHEN, and you have NO OTHER WAY of getting Dark Arts. Change my mind.
So, question. I’ve been doing this savage tier and extremes with full direct hit melds on my tanks. Should I add crit instead if the piece can take it. I think my current stat spread is like 2400 crit, 2100 determination, and 1600 direct hit.
Honestly I wish they'd either commit to tenacity and piety and have those basically be determination for those roles (like, go so far as to get rid of DET on their gear and make DET do fuck all for them) or just get rid of them already.
I'd like to know the gap between war and other tanks, bcs war has auto dh on burst while others haven't. Would this change something in point of tenacity?
Unfortunately I'm too smoothbrain to do much with my melding besides "get as much crit as I can and put the remaining slots on a secondary stat"
and if doing that for tenacity isn't helpful enough, direct hit it will continue to be, because things dying faster in farming content is very good
The problem is for more casual raiding teams is that once they get to a fight, they can literally go to fflogs and just copy a mitigation plan from other groups that have the same comp and still go with max damage. "Figuring out when to use defensives" simply doesnt exist outside of blind raiding which is mostly done by week 1 raiders anyway.
As someone who just plays tank for fun, I just put max tenacity into all my tanks, it feels really nice to barely take any damage and when playing tank I don't really care whether a boss dies 4% faster. I think a good idea to buff tenacity beyond this point is to simply have it buff certain defensive effects of skills. Just to give PLD and DRK as examples:
– PLD :
— Increase the HP buffer from Divine Veil (if TEN gives 20% dmg reduction, have Divine Veil then also give the shield effect a +20% hp increase)
— Increase the rate of us gaining Oath Gauge depending on TEN
— TEN improves shield potency of Guardian and duration/potency of Holy Shelltron's healing effect
– DRK :
— Increase healing potency of Shadowed Vigil depending on TEN
— TEN adds a health recovery bonus when dealing damage by consuming Dark Arts
— TEN adds a health recovery bonus when dealing damage with Blood Weapon/Delirium active
I'm maxing Ten on tank jobs mainly to annoy the tanks in my static, but I do think it's legitimately a good choice. To my mind the question is if you think a wipe to a <0.2% enrage is more or less likely than a wipe to the tank getting overkilled by <15% or so. Neither is likely, both happen often enough, I don't have data on exactly how often they happen but an enterprising soul could probably scrape flogs for it if they want.
The kill time difference on a 10 min 8-man fight is ~2 seconds which is not itself very interesting to me outside of when it makes the difference for enrage. If you're into parsing for the sake of parsing then that calculation is different of course.
Things I learned today cause I never really properly read the stat… Tenacity increases the damage and healing. Huh. Main tanking Savages through EW and DT now on two characters with GNB, and never knew. I'm not a min-maxer type anyhow. I just go for what is typically simple in my mind with stats, so I throw crit on when I can, DH where crit cannot, with minor exceptions for the DH of some sksp materia so food puts me at 2.44 GCD. I used to stick to the full 2.5, but the tome weapon that had a LOT of SkSp. in EW got me used to the faster timings and I fell in love with it.
Though I am really aware of how much the bosses may actually hurt with autos at times, but it just made me actually use defensives for something OTHER than a TB. For the majority of EW, the chunk damage was so minimal that I literally just never bothered to personal mit except for TBs a lot. Exceptions if I saw a mistake and had to put extra out to cover it. Abyssos actually got me really into the habit of over-mitting the TBs cause of the constant dots. Something I never stopped doing since. Only difference is now I will use my short during auto phases, and will actually use Camouflage as well to help the healers not need to baby me. And if I am OT, HoC goes onto the MT during those phases as well.
I wish I could meld Tenacity up the ass for fun without it griefing the rest of my party.
I suspect one group is going to try tenacity on tank and/or off tank in the ultimate fight coming. That's the only place where it can really make a difference. It'll either help, or cripple them, and I can not make that call, not even as a gues.
While direct hit doesnt give more direct hit dmg, it does give more dmg to guaranted direct hit attacks, according to it's description. Making it kinda more priority on warrior?
Tenacity is sounding very similar to the value of having a Rez Mage in your prog group…
I know what could be added to Tenacity to make it "good". A "guts" mechanic. A chance to survive on exactly 1 HP if you would have died, if you have enough tenacity (defined as a % chance based on a comparison of the damage you took and your tenacity stat, with some scaling involved).
I just realised that tenacity is most powerful on darkknight…. F also I still need to lvl that one to 100. Might just get some more tenacity to make it easier
I play tank in mostly casual content and an additional 12% inherent damage reduction is so good that I just put as much tenacity on myself as I can. Especially right now when people are neither fully geared nor do they know the fights well enough to not get hit by things, putting extra strain on the healers. Healers whose quality also varies MASSIVELY, I don't need the extra damage especially for the content I am doing where just doing the rotation better can get you like 10-30% potency gains overall just by itself. I can't do my rotation when I am dead.
Tenacity was never bad, the meta was just maximum damage done = better, and it was the healers' job to deal with the consequence. Even in the initial question an equal amount of tenacity resulted in a total 12*3=36% advantage compared to 16.7*2=33.4% advantage for determination. So unless you valued one of the components of tenacity at less than that of determination tenacity granted greater total advantage.
Tenacity was bad because the meta was to take advantage of your healers. The less prepared you are to do that the better tenacity gets.
I don't think it's fair for us to make an assessment right now when all the tanks can nigh infinitely heal themselves. Once tank healing gets nerfed into the ground as it should, having 20% mit perpetually will be huge sustain.
Something else for viewers to note is that the % difference is less in practice. Ten may be X% worse per value but in reality your damage difference is going to be smaller because you have the base 100% of your original damage you're doing and the substat values are small modifiers. In the example given, 10.6ten/13.2det is about -20%, but 110.6/113.2 is about -2.3% difference. That's still a decent margin but that example was only the 3058 crit you had, not accounting for the 4559 other substats diminishing the actual DPS difference between the two.
That's when you really start to see how big of a change it is. Tenacity is like 1.5% less damage for 20% mit. If you inverse that, not maxing Ten is choosing to take 25% more damage for 2% more damage.
Yet the answer is still "You don't need that mit and faster kills are more important."
Part of this problem is that raids are the only content we got. If we got content where sustain was more important, then Ten's value would skyrocket. But most content where it is more important has set static stats (deep dungeons, bozja). Although, now I am very curious about how good Ten is in Eureka at the moment…
The other aspect is that tanks have ridiculous self healing that makes it so that oftentimes healers don't have to do anything. Hopefully this gets fixed but judging based on the fact that the community is outraged that DRK has a reasonable amount of sustain instead of being overpowered like the other tanks, I genuinely don't know.
If we get content that emphasizes the importance of sustain, then likely the value would go up. If they also made it so that tanks are no longer blue healers, the importance of mit skyrockets. There's a lot of potential and it's hard to say for certain right now if it will stay obsolete.
In my opinion, the gap between Det and Ten is still too low. So many people are numbers chasers. It could be .5% and some people would forgo the 20% mit. I really want "Det over Ten" to be the gearing equivalent of standing in vuln stacks for uptime. I think Ten should be the expected gear and Det should be reserved for "shiny number" hunting, ideally. That would be the best way for both to have a purpose. There is absolutely a breaking point where it becomes more valuable to have that huge mit over a tiny DPS increase and people are smart enough to see that and adjust. The changes are so close but not quite there yet for the current content we have.
I have no real data on it, but I farmed out a full tenacity-det set for PLD for MINE savage Nael and it feels impactful, since she likes to do lots of damage and very frequently, especially later on when stuff overlap, and potency creep more than makes up for that tiny bit of lost damage imo. On that note, you can do some funny stuff with PLD, since weapons before stormblood still have wacky attackspeeds, so you can grab a 1.92 weapon for it and generate Sheltrons faster, instead of the now default 2.14 speed
Imo they just make Tenacity do something other than damage reduction like a passive regen rate or duration of mitigative abilities extended so I can have 12-15 secs of invuln that would be worth taking.
Tenacity is doodoo
I just use whatever the highest Ilvl gear I have is (rarely even meld materia). Do stats make enough of a difference that it really matters outside of ultimates?
IMO its a fair filler. On my mixed gear set (710+720 stuff) especially for my WAR, after maxing out Crit and Det, filling the rest of pentamelds with tenacity is pretty decent. ONLY looking on damage, on a tank who makes FULL use of DH its a ~difference of augmenting one gear piece difference in damage (disregarding other bonuses like HP). And yes I agree tenacity is far from being in the end of tier BIS set, but it can be good enough for prog/start especially considering it cost saved me more than 90% of gill I would have needed if I would have went for DH for example