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Pretty much all dungeons after Shadowbringers have used this formula. Ain't complaining though.
It's been awhile since zep posted a video on the main page. I have a feeling she's hiding from having to talk about DT's trash story
I hate trash pulls. Get rid of them entirely and the game would be much better for it. And please dont give me, "it is to charge LB excuse". LB is pretty worthless outside the healer LB3. LB2 for dps barely does a couple percentage points of damage to boss if that. Id rather them simply not be in the game at this point.
#maketrashpullsgreatagain
I have played other mmos where you had to do mini mechanics to unlock the boss or mini bosses with actual challenging/interesting mechanics, I wish they would implement systems like this once in a while…
Wouldn't mind destructible walls or other mechanics like levers to let you pull more if you choose to while keeping the same formula.
At least that way there is a conscious choice of pulling the additional packs.
They're starting to shake things up a bit with a trash that's a bit unique compared to the rest. Like the monument in Tender Valley that's only singular and give wall lasers. I'm an advocate of stirring things in a very crazy way (like, trash pack prior to the wall laser trash that gives untelegraphed knockback, for instance). But as we all know, even adjusting the boss has already given people reason to keep bitching about how HARD the dungeons are to the point it's no longer playable for them.
Calcabrina was another one. I wished they grant them +20% damage stack bonus to their aoe for every trash that dies. IMO we're heading for the right direction, keep voicing out the positive feedback for how the boss has been changed, and soon you'll see more of them coming. If the forum posts only contain the too-hard-whiners, they'll only go back to their usual formula again
Isnt the formula "2 trash pack, wall, 2 trash pack, boss" older than Dawntrail?
There is some potential with the new dungeons that I feel is wasted and I hope is addressed moving forward. Criterion gave us a small glimpse into this, but the idea of 1 trash pull and 1 mini boss is actually great. Doesn't have to go in order every time either. 1 trash, 1 mini, boss 1 – 1 mini, 1 trash, boss 2 – etc… Mechanics don't need to be crazy or ground breaking either, left cleave, right cleave, dynamo and then combo cleave dyanmo. Rinse repeat until mini is dead. Beats mindlessly spamming AOE in between bosses…
This is why ARR dungeons are the best. Unique and varied layouts, not always 3 bosses, varied boss arenas, unique mechanics, interactable items, hidden treasure etc. The boss fights aren't as good as they are nowadays, but in every other way they're superior to the modern "dungeon" formula which is just a linear theme park ride where you kill 2 packs between 3 bosses every time.
They really need to just try harder to make the stretches between bosses interesting by giving the trash actual mechanics and having more environment hazards and what not.
Not "trash pulls " it's "exciting pacing mechanics!"
Yeah, I want even a little variety. One big bad on trash. Many many smaller ones. Just want dang variety. I got so bored with it all.
Bosses are fine, but similarly, variety is nice. A few "Patchwerk" bosses would be nice. Just some variety beyond the dodging mechanics where when you have the twitch muscle memory down its boring.
I don’t care if they stick to the formula if the story is really pumping. Unfortunately, with the issues that Dawntrail has in this department, the seams are really showing.
2:18 that is horrible if that is their goal
the 2 trash pack per pull max was for sure done so that new players arent pressured to just pull it all, at most u gain 1 pack of kills faster if you're doing 1 pack per pull
It's an issue older than DT and even FFXIV 2.0 itself and isn't unique to Dawntrail. Yoshi-P mentioned in an interview a while ago that thwy coould add multiple branching paths but players will always take the most optimal route. WoW has been a great example from Wrath Onwards. It's hard to name a dungeon from Wrath Onwards that isn't just one big corridor, or one big loop where you fight trash, and then a boss melts.
Blizzard try to make a dungeon feel non-linear all the time, Nokhund Offensice and Academy being the best recent examples in Dragonflgiht, but once you realise all the big open area (or big loop in the case of Academy and Ruby Life Pools) does is make an illusiion of choice, you might as well just be running down a corridor. MoP Remix did a good job of highlighting just how linear WoW dungeons actually are.
SWTOR is another great pre-ARR MMO that ended up doing the same thing. Players will always find the most optional route through a dungeo nand stick to it. GW2 realised that was well when nobody game a crap about their dungeons and they went with the Fractal system.
Preach has an excallent video on MMO dungeons and how they have developed over the years which is 100% worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN4TjvZwEZ4
I remember after the rez the tank strat stopped being a thing, the new thing became 'someone pull the boss, tank pulls the mobs to the door, then when the 15 second timer is up, the mobs get locked out of a boss room'. Good times lol
Too much work. The trash packs should come to me.
i really dont like the single pulls they have in several dungeons in DT
I feel like we all started with The Dead-mines and things have never been that good again.
ARR trash was the best trash in the game where as the bosses were actual trash.
having been in HW for a bit now i can safely say that the trash is boring because there is no wiggle room to try to pull that one extra pack. at least the bosses are…a bit better so far.
just take out the walls and see how it goes. i feel like with the toolkits people have, 4-6 packs of mobs should be doable in a single pull
Dungeons are like this because everyone complained that dungeons were taking too long and not respecting everyone's time. So, now we have dungeons where you don't have to think about anything and can just check out while spamming AOEs.
There's a mechanic in Sildihn Variant Dungeon where if you kill a certain group of enemies in the right order, the path changes. There are ways to have creative pulls that aren't just AOE spam. Wish they did this more.
Let the tank die, or you could strategically strand them on the wrong side of the boss door.
the dungeons are just… very safe, and that's unfortunate
I'm ok with that formula tbh.
when they talked about the "package" design philosophy and wanting everyone to have the same experience i got worried.
they should let the players get wacky, give us tools to make runs different and not try to make everything the same flavor for "consistency sake"
I'm kinda tired of the homogenized content, everything is the same and you can't expect any new approach, it's like you have a chess board, but with every new dungeon the tiles and pieces have new colours, but guess what, the rules are ALWAYS THE SAME. IMO that's what WoW does much MUCH better (tho I stopped playing WoW for other reasons)
The dolls in the dreadwalk are fine.
Dungeon are simply brain dead now and offer zero challenge, at this point i wonder what is even the point of dungeon of they don't offer any real gameplay
Yoshi-P to Preach: "some people don't have much time to play and need something simple and short to do really quick!"
I get the discourse for devs liking consistency BUT if I wanted that, which I do for my first runs, I run with the NPCs.
Then, any subsequent run, I do it with players because it's much faster.
I run with NPCs because I get the extra dialogue, context and, if the map has readable stuff, like the lvl 89 dungeon, I have all the time in the world to just read it for lore purposes.
Like, the option is there for people who want a consistent experience. For the rest, let them go wild and don't arbitrarily put shackles on their feet just because they want each dungeon to last a certain amount of time. It's stupid.
If the formula works, don't fix it. Leave the gimmicks to variant dungeons. The second people find an optimal path in normal dungeons, it becomes expected, and rarely will anyone wait to let you take your time. FFXIV just cuts through the pretense.
I dont think "random enemy with a ton of hp that isn't interesting, or an actual threat" counts as miniboss 🙁
It's just boring and a waste of time
People have to remember that we have this formula because it mitigates the assholeness of MMO players.
Back then if you were a tank with tankxiety and pulled low, your healer and or DPS would go ahead and pull the rest and force your hand. And if you complained : you got flamed.
Same with healers, if you couldn't keep up the pace with pack sizes, you got flamed.
And it was one of the many reasons why tanks and healers were extra rare in ARR. Dungeon design was more varied, job design too. But players consistently turned the experience shit way too often
I'm going to laugh if they change the dynamic and fight the main boss at the start at the highest level possible. 😅❤❤❤
I hate those arbitrary walls so much
When the trash packs don't even give exp anymore, it's almost like why even have them at all? They're kinda just there at that point to be in the way.
Now if I recall, they just put the exp you would've gotten from them on the boss, but when you only see the exp from the boss, it makes it feel like they're not worth the time.
Yeah what they wanna do is not have tanks feel pressured to pull everything even if they cant handle it. But like… many tanks fuckin single pull anyway these days and most people just deal with it. Let me MASSIVE pull at my own pace
I miss W2W too, but raiders (you know the sort) are/can be jerks in DF/Roulettes, and it quickly becomes a point of contention when someone (a sprout or casual, lets say) DOESNT adhere to how some people expect pulls to go, so pulling gates are here to stay. Lotta people with a chip on their shoulder who have confused "learn to play your class" with "play exactly the same way I play, any deviation is wrong".