After last week’s Ultimate drama, I spent some time thinking about what role third party tools (especially plugins) play in Final Fantasy XIV. For better or worse, I don’t see them going anywhere, but as Square’s official policy remains “vanilla only,” what sorts of solutions are available to them OR us?
This one’s a bit less edited than my usual videos as it’s mostly a discussion post-turned-video, but I’d love to hear your guys’ thoughts on the plugin debacle.
No real chapters/timestamps for this one!
Extended eulogy for the old funny link.
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I'm of the opinion that plugins are pretty unnecessary for FFXIV, and that the few plugins that do add quality of life things need to just be added to that game as a UI option. But adding things like ACTs is going to make raiding toxicity worse. Unless you're only in a static with friends or you know your static is cool, it'll just turn into something that can be used to bully others for not meeting a threshold. Not to mention it will create gatekeeping within static for not being able to hit certain enmity thresholds.
No
Nice Miquote super cute ! I don't mind hat mods for vieras because i love vieras from ff12 lol. Maybe someday vieras can wear hats 🙂 Thank you for the video as always !
I think the strict policy is good in this case. They may not enforce it at all levels, but keeping a level playing field for harder content is very important to avoid going down the same path as WOW.
i don't think its fair to compare team formation for a viseogame with a job interview either. Expecting optimal results only breeds elitism and makes it harder for new players to actually get into these things. I'm not saying that a player can't be reprimanded for dragging the rest of the team down, but let it be because they visibly underperformed, not because an external tool spit a number 1.87% below expectations.
I'm not against viera hats or accessibility features like tts chat, but things that can affect game balance are a different story.
5:13 Okay, Hold right there for a moment I wanna voice a train of thought. Is having to compare a VIDEO GAME, to a JOB/COLLAGE INTERVIEW a sign that a line of over-seriousness may have been crossed? That it may (key word MAY) in fact be toxic gate keeping on the grounds that it uses what many would probably consider an overkill amount of scrutiny on someone for the explicit purpose of excluding them from the activity if they fail to meet a criterion that they can't even see their distance from in game without breaking ToS?
IDK, seem like it kinda highlights the issue of the game in player skill feedback and a few conflicts in the community.
do i think they’re necessary? no. but neatnoter is better than taking notes by hand, and hotbar fader is some nice QoL. could i play monk without noclippy? sure, but it’d feel like crap. would glamour still be my endgame without anamnesis and gshade? sure, why not. I could live without the plugins I use, but they’re a neat, harmless addition.
I don’t consider plugins necessary, but so long as they aren’t cheating/providing an unfair advantage (see: TOP drama), I see no reason why not to live and let live. If you use them, cool, awesome, and if you don’t, why go on a report crusade against people you don’t even know?
nice catgirl!! very good points in this video too, especially your counterpoint to fflogs/act supposedly being toxicity enablers. i get others' grievances with it and it will definitely always be a point of contention, but i agree that the blame doesn't really lie with fflogs. instead, people should look towards the players who either use it for malicious means or blame their shortcomings/not being able to join a static because fflogs/"elitism."
besides PvE/QoL plugins, i also find it massively worrying how people are so willing to wantonly showcase the fact they use cosmetic mods (e.g., the whole RP nightclub billboard fiasco, people posting very clearly modded screenshots w/ official FFXIV hashtags on twitter, etc.). overall, so true that third party tools are always gonna be in the game, but also just wish people had a little more self awareness
looking forward to the next video!
Only one I use is Gshade, never gonna touch the cheating ones
People want to act like ff14 is not toxic that is why they do not want ACT. But it has the worst the worst form of toxicity condescending and passive aggressive.
The day Sqeenix officially allow plugins is the day I quit playing the game. I refuse to participate in another WoW situation.
Plugins are necessary. There are plenty of quality of life things that make the game way more playable, that square may not ever implement. But aside from that the customization options for characters is lacking. No way any modern game can't manage to include some kind of options for black hair textures. But it is especially atrocious in a game that periodically adds new hairstyles.
Honestly im middle ground. I use certain plugins as QOL such as pvp-> pve which just does what pvp does in condesing skills down to make more hot bar space instead of bloat. I like using gshade so I already know where I stand. If you wanna raid with certain things on. Yeah I dont care. Yet if your trying to use it for competition WOAH THERE COWBOY SLOW YOUR DAMN ROLE. Your cheating plain and simple. If I wanted to clear ultimate with ease and not brag then yeah sure. If were trying to world race….No learn it the right way. Same goes for Burn down the house and house glitching both are cheating to get creative results. The items are being used in a way not intended to be. So for many of you yeah its a 50/50 on how its being used.
I think the game is 100000% enjoyable without mods. They are also still useful for some people. They are also beneficial to some people. I'm of the mind "to each their own" when it comes to mods. The bit about ACT and comparing fflogs to a college or job interview is too much though. That's weirdly serious for a game…which should be fun. That sounds stressful.
As a Bard and Dancer main, I do not use mods, but I relish that Next in Line enmity! Until, of course, the tank falls…
If Square dose make a new set of rules, which allow certain mods, this will only encourage the type of gamer that likes to dance on the lines and test the limit, a blanket ban is simply sensible.
I miss the little gremlin already 🙁
No. There you go, just saved six minutes.
I worry about the add on usage in pvp. Especially Ranked pvp. Sometimes I can't help but wonder "Was that LB auto triggered for them when I hit 50% hp?"
All third party tools HAVE to be blanket policy. Consoles and console players exist. It happens. I will also just go ahead and say that really even fully automating your rotation or cactbot isn't that big a deal. If you're trying to claim a win world first, or that you're somehow amazing, that's pretty shitty. However, I guarantee there's plenty of raiders you've been with that use heavy mods and plugs but aren't weird about it.
Its just one of those things where people act like they want a clear answer, but they already have one. Third party tools are banned, end of story. They do not have any means to explicitly KNOW what you have running on your PC. Do what you will.
The only alternative would be for the company to do a bunch of programming work to encrypt a bunch of data hooks, and maybe design an official API. Considering they patched a 1.0 code issue after EW launch, I'd expect Yoshi-P to quit smoking sooner than that.
anybody cherry picking blatant cheating versus using voice chat such as discord should quit the game. That's such a stretch from what the issue is and what the issues aren't and it's obvious. The whole "drama" about this is a new aspect of final fantasy I'm shocked to have been introduced to.
Plug in's are not necessary at all, but they do enhance the game play which I have no issue with. The problem is when people rely on them just to play the game, for example, the one where it tells you all the mechanics before hand and such. Those whom have been playing since the beginning, we have seen the tools that have come out and such. Some good, some bad. I'm honestly ok with mods as long as they are used responsibly. However if they are used toxically, that's where the issues come into play. I completely agree with having a sit down with players and helping them learn how to play their chosen class better, making suggestions on how to output more damage, what I disagree with is a solid, "You have to put out X amount of damage to be a part of our group." With the whole Ultimate drama, granted they had a unfair advantage, and they got rightly punished for it. It's safe to assume that any content or contests that they put out, it is to be played vanilla to keep things fair. You don't see a person taking steroids or any other performance enhancer, getting caught, and taking home the win, same applies here.
Mandatory plug ins is why I bounced off WoW when I tried it. Mandatory plug ins are cancer and if I had my way: an anti cheat would have already been installed to prevent mods from being dominate over content.
Please help, the now catgirl has held my chocobo hostage for the past two months… I miss Kwehlo…
ff logs are like a gun sure you can say it depend o nthe person to use it how they want it but dont make a excuse when that person commits a mash shooting the issue is better not give them a gun to not risk a mass shooting then try to give them one .
Plugins – no. ACT – not needed, really, you can see without numbers if someone's not on the right fight. Some QoL – why not. When – every patch and then.
I just can't stand people asking for more harder content do to it with friends, while using cheats and plugins to make it easier for themselves and complete it – what a bunch of Paissa's…
They can deny access to the APIs and that would result in a consiiiderable performance drop for addons. WoW once considered disabling or restricting API access in instanced zones.
Now third party tools can and often will introduce exploitable vulnerabilities to your home system or network even, and the company producing the exploited application may be held legally responsible for the actions of their irresponsible users – something ToS are tailor made to avoid. It’s again the same issue that would require some pirate moral code from the community, like ERP and getting age restricted for it did.
I understand exactly why Square is doing this. Open the floodgates, and then suddenly it's a litigation nightmare, and it means getting proof of it will be a pain in the rear without obvious screenshots. Stubbornly fighting against modding is the easiest solution, and it's sad to see things that are legitimately harmless get thrown under the bus for it. I have no idea what the new raid drama is, but from someone who has been burned by number crunching before, I think there's a simple statement to make. Games are made to be fun. Obvious, yeah, but I like to remove myself from the equation and just say that it's not reasonable to flame people for quality of life mods, accessibility, or cosmetics. I couldn't care less what oversized hat someone could wear. As long as my game is going fine, keep it on the sly and I will too.
I like what you said about ACT. I know a few friends that uses it (not going to name them for clear reasons) and it was nice. Learning how to better time the likes of Energy Drain on SCH, practicing NIN and AST weaves, and learning how I can improve on my RPR was fun! On the other hand, the time of the friends started leveling PLD, unlocked Clemency, and then got flamed because he dared to play with his new skill in Bardam's Mettle (he wasn't doing the job quests) was inane. Doubly so because said PLD was fighting with the AST, leading them both to spitefully stop fighting and getting me killed because the Yol aggro'd to me instead. Or the time in the newest (patch 6.3) alliance raid where I dared to cast Physick to try and heal him on a third of his health and he shouted at me to just DPS. I was a SCH. I love my friends dearly, but it just goes to show that as tools, they have their uses and their misuses.
Bottom line, if you desperately seek top level performance: ACT is a wonderful friend, and can improve your time. I have nothing against that. It's when it gets to the level of "other people cannot have fun because they cast ONE SPELL that didn't add to the damage", that it becomes a problem. I'll always just say to play the game and have fun. Ruining other peoples time is something that should never be allowed. Mods are not a black and white issue, for the most part.
Yes.
They're a tool, you gotta use it for the right job, not abuse and build a reliance on them
I don't know these joys of having plug-ins as a console peasant. I don't even have the ability to talk with other homies cause I don't have Discord which a large part of the community is on.
I think plugins are fine, especially the ones that just add very small QoL features. My two favorite plugin features are:
-people in text chat have randomly colored names so it's easier to track who says what
-basic bitch 1 2 3 combo actions and the like are assigned to one button (like in PVP) to avoid hotbar bloat and just smooth out my experience because my hands are retarded
on your point about reliance on plugins, i can understand that to some degree but there are players for whom some plugins are there for accessibility reasons— things that could and should be in the game, like mouseovers or condensed 1-2-3 combos to name a few
you can debate stuff like cactbot, and i will agree that gets to a weird point with some people, but at the end of the day it's about not having an unfair advantage
for some players, there are features which aren't in the vanilla game that just hinder their experience too much to find the game enjoyable or tolerable, be it for hand pain, poor eyesight, motor issues, etc
i think an important part of the discussion is to recognize the place plugins have as a way to mitigate how unaccessible xiv can be at times, as well as understanding the limits of what accessibility really means
that's why these conversations matter cause then we can at least try to reach a community agreement instead of pretending plugins are the boogeyman lol
A reminder that gshade is malware and its maintainer is unhinged. Remove it from your machine.
i think the strict policy is good. the people who ask if things like Discord or VPN are 3rd party tools i dont think they are asking that in good faith. they know that by 3rd party tool Square means software that interacts with or rewrites script in game but they want to get them in a "gotcha" to justify the use of all the 3rd Party tools that games like WoW utilize. we all know that if Sqaure creates a grey area in the case of 3rd Party tools we are going to end up in the same predicament as WoW is where the devs in order to make any type of content are going to have to put these 3rd party tools in consideration while making new content for us which is not optimal at all. if we keep pushing on this matter trying to get around it. its only a matter of time where Square is going to have to be proactive in enforcing the 3rd Party tool regulation and not reactive. basically sooner or later lawyers and background software implemented in game to find 3rd party tools will get involved and im pretty sure no one fucking wants that. the Devs included otherwise they would have done it already instead of trying to be nice with the small slaps on the wrist and the obvious case of them looking the otherway for now
I for one am very glad of Yoshi P's policy of no mods because of the barrier to entry point you made. I love experiencing the fights, the spectacle, learning the unique ways they flag mechanics, and while I'm not always very good at figuring things out or reading things quickly I still feel like it's a MUCH more enjoyable way to play than just being told "Stand here. Stand there. Use this ability." The end result is the same but the method of getting there is very different, and if my group said that I would need to install 5 different plugins in order to be allowed to fight a particular fight, I don't think I'd even be willing to try. Not even that it's too much effort or I wouldn't be able to figure out how, but more so because I just don't like using mods in games period. The only game I've ever actively used mods for was Skyrim, and even then I didn't do anything crazy.
I've been accused of "gatekeeping" because of this mindset, but I don't actually think it's as big of a deal for most players as people make it out to be. A number of people in my regular static are on the neurodivergent spectrum, and my raid callout leader is colorblind. We make do. We adjust. We're a semi-casual group, sure, but we still play the game vanilla and love doing so.
Personally I use plugins, but they're all for stuff that only affects me. Stuff like one that shows me where all my daily hunts are on the map. The only thing that does is make it so I don't need ConsoleGamesWiki up on my second screen. Or one that removes quest markers from the map. I mean shit, Gshade is technically a 3rd party tool that just makes the game nicer to look at.
I wouldn't use them for progression content, because then that's affecting other players and I don't have the right to do that. I don't use anything that would give me an advantage over someone else. Everything I use is strictly for a personal QOL improvement and that's it.
Some add-ons do in fact need to be addressed but I see no troubles in SOME cosmetic mods. The cosmetic mods that worry me are the mods that let you equip mog station items for free. Those include things like "playdead, Gaia's outfit, and race changing" after all, those are items you have to pay for and you are using modifications to get them for free. That basically sums up my stance on add-ons and mods.
Great points! Also, what are the armor pieces on 2:52s glam?
If it was up to me I would have a curated list of mods that are acceptable to use and use of any of those not on the list risks the banhammer, I'd also have a blacklist of mods that are totally unacceptable and getting caught using them is an instant permaban, no ifs no buts. Mods that automate game actions, playing your rotation, auto gathering, auto MB listing etc = blacklisted, mods that substantially change the gameplay environment, zoom hacks, splatoon etc also blacklisted. Mods like gshade, bunnny hats etc all fine, go wild, also self improvement tools like act, fflogs also fine and any mods that improve the UI or gameplay experience that are only modifying information that is already a part of the base UI, things like better more customisable buff timers all get considered for the OK to use list. Finally I'd run the WF race on separate bespoke servers and only teams that clear on those servers are considered for a legit WF. 'Race servers' would basically be the raid instance and a staging area and nothing else, along with extra tools for casters to see a given players POV, meters and so on to improve how the race can be streamed, as well as obviously locking out ALL addons to give the WF races as level a playing field as possible.
I'm waiting for chat bubbles to be implemented without having to use addon.
my personal opinion is that you can do whatever you like as long as it doesn't affect other people. if you're gonna world's first race or openly brag about how good you are, then don't use tools that so massively ease mechanics. plus, if you rely on that, as you said, patch day raiding is tedious if people can't play without. but as long as you CAN play the game without them and you keep it to yourself i really don't care if you do whatever, personally.
I personaly think its good to be strict in those kinda cases. For myself i think you should split those plugins in 2 groups: Advantage and non advantage. The Tools which the raides used are an advantage against all other players who are raiding. The Player which using them should get punished for that. Me as HC raider feel ashamed, that player who calls themself the top 1% worldfirst raiders are using those tool. i cant understand that, where is the pride for those raiders? They can never say: i did it by myself, they will allways know they could only achiv kill witch cheats… I know a lot of HC players which using Kekbot and co and talking like they are the best players on earth. For me those raider are the worst on earth.
The Plugins like Mare and co which just gives u more Options for the glames and other stuff are non advantage Plug ins. I think they shouldnt be punished for that. Since only other mare users can see the glamour and co.
plugins are not necessary to play, even if it might be uncomfortable for some.
but there is a scale from hacking/cheating all the way down to visual client side. most people keep it to themselves if they use mods and the only way you would know if that viera is using a hat mod or that person has a green ui is asking them if they use mods.
unless you are blatantly hacking or botting then square enix doesn't care to ban you, the rest is left up to the community to care about asking every person if they're using mods or simply not caring.
Anything that gives an unfair advantage over others is cheating. Now, thats easier said than done, I'm aware of that. What is "anything", and what is "unfair"? And who are these "others"? Are they only the direct competitors or the entire community? I agree with you thats its impossible for SE to doubledown on this and track every players PC. But I also think neither SE nor we as the community should normalise add-ons in general.
Its like doping in (competitive) sports: its illegal, and if you're caught, you're banned for life (or at least many years, which, since a human's physical performance depends on age, can mean a life long ban). I dont want FF14 to become like WoW where you cant even raid semi-serious without a number of add-ons (and I should know: I raided on heroic with my guild (!!!) and had to install and update several add-ons, otherwise I could leave). And I'm afraid, if SE gives in, thats what eventually going to happen here. And no, I dont want that: it would mean, not the best players get the kill but the team with the better programmers. (Let me be clear: I dont mean, that those players are bad, but if they need 3rd party tools to win, than, yes, they are bad compared to their peers!)
Would an official World First race, hosted by SE, solve this particular problem? In parts it would. An official race would have to be monitored by officials. Players participating wouldnt necessarily have to publically stream their entire progress, but teams participating in the official race would have to agree on having outside observers watching them. Its like writing a test in school: noone in their right mind would let a class write a test and send the teacher away, excepting pupils to not cheat. How the particulars would look like, I have no idea. Its would amount to a lot of effort on SE's side, and I'm not surprised they havent bothered with it yet. However, the situation as it stands promotes cheating, simply because there is noone to check whether or not you play fair or not.
The 'ACT is just a tool' argument is an incredibly dangerous slippery slope, and it must be said, a lot of the same plugins you openly criticize/hate are ACT plugins. Cactbot specifically is an ACT overlay tool, those plugins that overlay AOE markers or show where to stand are all ACT overlays for the most part.
Further, it could be argued that an auto-rotation bot is a 'tool' as well and could be used to better understand and play a class' rotation by literally walking you through it on autopilot.
Now does that mean auto-rotation is just a tool and not bad for the game's health?
No.
Same goes for ACT if you ask me, parsers have their place in high-end extreme content but the vast majority of FFXIV isn't that, further and I think this is most important, you don't need ACT to improve yourself. Learn your rotation, learn the boss, learn mechanics and what you need to do, you don't need a parser to get better at any of these aspects but you do need it if you want to place blame.
If someone in your static is being dead weight you can tell without a parser spelling it out for you.
As a console player, it is absolutely unnecessary to have any plug-ins.
Unless they add some of the QoL and accessibility options natively into the game I will never be against addons. I know people who really can only play because of XIVCombo, because pvp style combos are so much friendlier for people with hand problems. And some things like chat bubbles that really just makes everything better for anyone who cares about in game interactions and immersion. There are many things that improve the life of players that they can’t or won’t devote the time into putting in game.
And I think most people know the line between accessibility and cheating. It’s really a small percentage of players who actively try to cheat with them, and an even smaller amount who cheat and negatively affect others by doing so (world firsts for example).
I’ve seen some people flat out say “permaban anyone using addons” and advocate anti cheat but you’re right that it would drive players away. And I think it’s ironic that some ACT users are now advocating for plug-in crackdowns considering ACT is very capable of actual cheating and not just parsing, not to mention the hypocrisy of using something that very clearly gives an in game advantage (yes parsing is an advantage – fights are not made to need to parse). I think “don’t ask don’t tell” is really the way but with strict enforcement of it to really scare people into compliance.