What WoW & FFXIV Players Struggle to Understand | Ginger Prime – Reaction to @Zepla HQ @ZepLIVE
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#ffxiv #reaction #gingerprime
Outline
0:00 Introduction
3:00 Getting Started
6:00 The Core Aspect
12:00 What The Community Thinks
15:00 Final Thoughts & Unlock your new Title
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Congratulations Brian and family!
About 37:00 in. Somehow – despite being praised for the story – FF14 looks like a very raid driven game in this discussion, especially since Zepla derives almost all her arguments from a raiders perspective. Sure, there is other stuff to do in FF14, but most of the other stuff (besides crafting) doesn't require different gear from you. So even if you are not raiding yourself, most of the motivation to do stuff at endgame derives from the needs of people who do raids.
Maybe her trying out GW2 helps to readjust the focus, since the "endgame" there is not only defined by raids: You have different builds for doing different types of content, and they also require different stats: Raids focus on group compositions, including dedicated supporters, tanks and glass cannon DPS; Fractals introduce an additional stat you need to take care of; Open World builds focus on more self-sustain because you might end up doing something alone and need to keep yourself alive (while still dealing enough damage to take down the enemy as quickly as possible). So the BIS differs here, without changing the actual power level. In addition to that going from exotic gear to ascended gear to legendary gear is (except for fractals) not required by the game and essentially your choice, often because you want to aim for the cosmetic or the added convenience or both; and this gear often doesn't drop or is obtainable via vendors, they need to be crafted (in some cases you can buy them via trading post, but someone still has to craft them). This is what keeps the economy in GW2 busy. And with this also all activities that you do in order to obtain the materials profitable and interesting.
I haven't tried New World yet (but planing to try it as soon as I have finished another game to free up some hard drive space), but as long as the crafting and trading aspects are playing a huge role – and so far I am under the impression they do – and have endgame content that promotes the acquisition of a wide range of items without devaluing those of the last patch, I think the economy within the game will be fine.
Despite my hopes of Zepla learning about this in GW2, I fear she might not, as there are raids in GW2 and chances are that she is too focused on these and doesn't dive deep enough into the game to understand this. There are a lot of people playing this game for years without understanding this part of the economy, even though they take part in it.
Edit at 47:00 in: Even though Zepla acknowledges the focus on the open world and shares my most common criticism on FF14 (and frankly most other MMOs) now, I stand by my words when it comes to the economy. I even want to add on it, because streamers are very rarely on their own in these games and therefore will probably not even be in need of working on their open world build & gear.
i agree with different pathways to gear and i wish ff14 would do that but dont you think new world will do the same thing when they introduce a raid into the game
are you planning on playing the Horizon XI when it comes out?
The final fantasy xiv economy for raid supplies ends up crashing within a couple of hours now due to so much supply vs demand. Much prefer the trickle up crafting system in New World where basic wood can turn into lumber and be used to then craft different tools or furniture.etc so there’s always demand that meets or exceeds the supply.
Your bis designed for your content argument makes a lot of sense! I’d love to take the customisation concept from Bozja and eureka content and apply it for fate farms, hunt farming, treasure dungeons, criterion dungeons, variant dungeons .etc.
You get cookie cutter builds for gear and materia melding. You get cookie cutter requirements for what food you have. You had cookie cutter builds for your bozjan weapon. It still exists within final fantasy xiv. People will always look to favour efficiency in mmos. Often to the cost of fun.
So, my roots in MMORPGs is in FF11. I think I am about 10 years older than you and had a vastly different perspective of FF11 than you did as you might have been in your early teens? a lot of my critiques of your opinions come from the fact I did play FF11 and quit during chains of promethius. I originally wrote and entire paragraph on why I inherently disagree with your reasons about your opinion of FF11. I start to ask myself why? why do I hate FF11 so much? It most certainly has a ton of beauty behind it and there was some absolutely solid things about it. So why do I act like a PTSD war veteran whenever FF11 is brought to the table of discussion?. And then I delve deep into player psychology behind what a gamers intrinsic and extrinsic motivations are. But you can not have such a discussion without talking about world of warcraft in a similar vein. You are right in a lot of its aspects. but since they have figured out the formula and got as popular as it got, it gave them room to experiment with almost everything including the kitchen sink and we have learned a lot about what people do psychologically with the tools they are given.
RMT gold farming was what resulted from Player driven economies. World of warcraft tried to fight it for years but their solution was the wow token. and unless you were 100% savy with the markets in FF11 or any pure player driven economy, almost everything was out of reach for the common players as the top earners kept things under lock and key. Does that not sound like the real world equivalent to the 1%ers? my Economics term paper back in college was based upon player driven economies and how we can study them in real time to prove economic disparity with the top earners of a capitalist market. which is why often times Governments (aka developers.) need to implement regulations for the broader populous. In a game like FF11 where the player base is small but hardcore. The economy is doing well, and is stable, for its established players across the spectrum but absolutely horrendous for any new player. And that circles back to my point on a previous video on why fresh start servers for new world is a thing.
Your comment about where people get rooted and where they come from in the gaming space absolutely can define why certain aspects appeal and don't. I live and breath RTS games but that has a completely different mind set than anyone who may have a creative drive. I have to know the path I need to take in order to respond to situations, Horizontal progressive games often don't recognize that mind set. Which is why your comment on the different language was absolutely spot on. and results to why I get so frustrated whenever people speak so fondly on FF11. I had such a miserable time playing it but it was the only other MMO other than everquest… and I found EQ worse…. then World of warcraft comes along and allows me to do things at my pace without the need for anyone…and if I wanted someone to join me, Awesome! but if not… I felt like my progression was valued by getting there on my own terms.. and god that felt good to me.
Y’know one of my favourite memories from endwalker. Walking into thavnair for the first time and stepping out of the first village into a fight with a hunt boss and shouting in chat to recruit an absolute ton of random players in the area that all kept throwing their bodies at the boss to kill it when it’s 10 levels higher and whilst we would die, people would be reading, people would be mitigating, people would be healing or shielding. It was such a memorable moment where everyone celebrated after before continuing our adventures in the zone
I would love ff11 to be updated to have some features such as an easy to follow map and controller support, maybe more modern graphics and be updated to operate on modern consoles or pc. The completely different gameplay style to ffxiv makes me curious but I tried playing and found the controls and lack of ease navigating put me off playing longer.
You want a very niche game for ultra hardcore players who live in a game – like yourself. XIV is just not made for you, and for majority of people you sound like an insane grandpa rambling about "superior" games of the past. People voted with their wallets, do you like it or not. I really hope that NW scratches your itch for a "real MMO", whatever that means, but XIV will never do that for you.
While zepla doesn’t understand the player driven economy, Brian doesn’t understand raiding just for the sake of it. Getting gear that becomes outdated isn’t the point of it. If you’re chasing gear then yes you’ll be frustrated when it becomes obsolete, but people who raid to raid aren’t doing it specifically for gear so numbers can go up.
I agree with you and they keep removing or making the gear uniqueness irrelivent. the closest thing is eureka speed ring or how they make you stronger with gear in eureka itself but should have wayyyyyyy more varriety.
What exactly is your standard for a "player driven economy"? You say Crafters and Gatherers don't matter unless a raid tier drops but that's not true. Crafting food is always required, crafting glam items (the most popular of which are only able to be created by crafters, who need gatherers for materials) is always profitable. I really don't understand what your issue is. Also how is the New World exploits and duping issues fake news? They literally happened, were reported on. I'm trying to understand but I'm not an economist so I honestly don't know lol.
I can't really comment on New World and build variety though, looks cool to me because it has a Rapier but that's all I know.
One last edit on Guild Wars 2's open world, the downside to that is that their instanced content is often sacrificed on the altar of Open World. It has its issues as well, there's not a balance there. I've played GW2 for many years and have seen how Anet's focus on the open world has cost a lot of other good content.
I never said "true" so many times in a single video. Great job Brian. We are the minority but I'm hoping some companies start to realize there are "riches in the niches.
FF11 kinda sucked ass honestly sat around screaming for parties to fight something that at most will give you 255exp after fighting it for 15 or 30 if you were bad or learning the game then if you die you can be deleveled all the way down to lvl 1 if you die enough. 18 hours to beat a boss is pretty fast for that game and not many have that kind of time any more.
Just to respond to your comment about how you wish Eureka was expanded upon more and how you wish it was in more of the game. When Eureka first came out, there was a lot of negative feedback about it. Now they made adjustments to it and salvaged it a little. But if they made Eureka expand to more of ffxiv when it had so much negative feedback about it, I would say that would be a good way to kill ffxiv.
Personally, I did enjoy Eureka. I loved that it widely encouraged group content. and it did give me that nostalgia of ffxi (I am also a ffxi player) but all Eureka did was make me take a break from xiv and go back to xi, because no matter how close Eureka got to a xi, it would never be like the real ffxi if that makes any sense.
I love that ffxi and ffxiv are so different from each other. I play them both for very different reasons. they both scratch a different itch. I think the reason why they are so different is the reason why they can exist side by side
Her arguments literally make no sense.
They lost
following these video, I realized that I want a player driven economy too, gonna give New World a try too, cause I'm just following FF14 for the story and WoW Story is dead for me for a while and I stopped playing that.
Lol like the can bring campaign back from wings of the goddess i love that in ff11 more then ppl everyone join the campaign get very good items and stuff. Final fantasy 14 combat experience is more like stay together if u die everyone die bs that need to change
Ya ff14 super mess up
Most ppl or just fan boys or girls and they dont really care abt the game long as they can play it.if it end oh well rip that's how most ppl think also of your a true mmorpg gamer they call you a no life because your so good i get so sick of that.
And thank you for saying that blue mage is the to build job or mimi job
I feel like all FFXIV youtubers in 2022 just make these pointless reaction of a reaction video.
Seems so lazy as "FFXIV content"
I wish I did content for this kind of video… I played 11, 14, Wow, Guild Wars 2, New World, and Lost Ark. Your arguments make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I even wonder if you really put legitimate time in these games on your personal time, outside of streaming or making content. For someone to say they aren't trying to force their opinion on other people., you certainly feel like you have to keep this argument going. For What? You want new world, go play it, but stop comparing it.
The problem is New World still isn't really providing like they should. When you talk to most people it just doesn't give what it should be giving and still feels lackluster
Hey GP have you thought of you thought of playing Strangers of Paradise? The RPG mechanic building is insane like FFXI!
Did u even try to find why NW economy is like it is? I guess not… NW was going to be semi survival with building and full loot pvp. Thats why most of things u kill/loot give u mats instead of items. So when u get raided/killed u just rebuild and craft new gear and u are ready to go. But when amazon decided to make NW mmorpg without forced full loot pvp/raiding they created new problem. Because at some point everyone will have best gear and price of mats will hit the floor. Just go check any pvp survival like rust/ark. Most of time people when kill u dont even pick your loot. So there is always demand for mats. After that go and play some survival in pve mode and without dropping gear after death. U will get bored after 1-2 weeks. So i think the only person that struggle to understand is you. Btw. U can just gather/craft stuff for yourself or firends in NW so that "social" economy u talking about its just bs.
The chat was only half wrong I can point you to working exploits in new world past and PRESENT some are not public but not that hard to find. Speed glitch and a dupe exists right now. That's the reason I'm staying away, after those go public do the damage they're going to do and get stamped out then I could see myself trying out a fresh server if they get their crap together. But their anti-cheat is laughable and some of the random things that come up are just in the code itself. It seems like they fix a window and another one breaks spontaneously. That's the peril of player driven economy, if the economy is made irrelevant by cheats the whole game progression gets taken down.
O.o
Regarding what you said about an offline FF11 story game, dragon quest 10 did it and it apparently was a success.
Hope they see that and consider it for 11's story, even if it's a third of all the quests from the original MMO.
And congrats with the newborn o/
New World is the first mmo that's really clicked with me and I believe it's truly from the feeling off all the content being connected. I never latched onto WoW although I played it very casually and enjoyed the world and the experience a lot but New World just lays out the world so beautifully
Not sure why Brian keeps harping on about why raid when gear gets replaced within 8 weeks. Personally speaking, I just raid because I like it. If it got too easy I'd min ilvl it. That being said, I agree with XIV being too samey or the overworld being lifeless and boring. A lot of XI jobs have more creativity behind it than an entire role in XIV. And as much as I love YoshiP and team experiment, it means nothing of they just leave it to rot instead of making it better in the next iteration. Content in the game feels so throw-away, sadly.
I'm sorry I try to understand your pov on all this but I just can't. I wish you the best and hope NW is good to you but all this just doesn't sound fun to me. I like how 14 is (I never played wow btw) because it does reward ppl who work hard and have skill. I don't want ppl to just be able to buy bis or ultimate weapons(I know ppl sell clears and I wish that would stop). If I saw someone who just bought their gear or weapon I feel it takes away the hard work I put In to earn my reward. To this day I use my UWU smn book and wear my ultimate legend title as a bagel of honor because I worked hard for a year to earn it with my group. I spent endless hours studying mechanics and my rotation.
I also like that there aren't player builds bc I know for a fact you would be locked out of groups if you didn't have a cookie cutter build. Sure you could get a party of friends who don't care what build you running but what if you are someone like me who doesn't have many friends and really don't want to talk to ppl bc I don't want to risk running into a toxic person or having social anxiety. Matchmaking helps me get clear without the worry of having to deal with ppl on a daily basis. As for raiding I used discord to find a static but it took me a whole year raiding with my static to even talk to them in voice. That's how bad my social anxiety is. Also want to add you may not have these issues because you are a content creator and have a community to play with. Someone like me would never have that type of experience and would have to hurt like minded individuals to play with which can be stressful and time consuming. So yeah I just don't understand and I'm tired of understanding but NW just sounds like a nightmare for me personally and not fun at all. I most likely never try it either bc it costs so much and I'm not going to spend money on something I'm pretty sure I'm going to hate.