A look into why the dramatic ending to A Realm Reborn was both necessary and damaging to the overall narrative in XIV. Spoilers for A Realm Reborn and Heavensward.
Timeline:
Why It Was Needed: 0:00-7:55
A Lack of Consequences: 7:55-12:48
How It Hurt:12:48-15:51
#ffxiv #arealmreborn
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I joined FF14 at the end of Shadowbringers which means I didn't have to dwell on the end of ARR too much as the story kept going for me. Personally, I didn't like that going back to Ul'dah was no big deal. It was a disconnect of what was happening in story and what I could do in game, if that makes sense. They explained why and how Nanamo was 'revived' pretty well. I do wish she had remained dead as it felt a bit….cheap I guess is the word. That and the 'revival' of all the scions did plant a seed of doubt about consequences though.
Shadowbringers/Endwalker spoilers below
The possible deaths of Thancred and Y'Shtola in Shadowbringers was a watershed moment for me. After the return of Nanamo and the scions in Heavensward the tickle of doubt was there but, I could brush it off as a one off event. Shadowbringers showed me that CBU3 wasn't going to let the 'popular' characters die.
The 'sacrifice' of the scions near the end of Endwalker was so predictably not going to be real that I almost laughed when Estinien disappeared. Hell Y'Shtola even says we can just bring them all back lol. Then they do a similar trick with the Warrior of Light sending the scions away to go fight the Endsinger solo and presumably die in the attempt from the scions point of view.
There's also the fact that the team flat out refuses to let time pass in the game. The twins are still kids after 10 years real world time. All the city states are exactly the same as ARR etc. It makes the world feel stagnant and unchanging IMHO.
I personally think that CBU3 either didn't learned their lessons or doesn't have the freedom to make the world have consequences. Which is a shame because I think that will ultimately be FF14's downfall. Not today or tomorrow but, eventually. I hope not but, it's a concern.
Personal opinion: I feel the same way about the 2.X patch quests the same way I feel about the main AAR story, in that the get a little bit of lenience due to being the first expansion.
The team, like the Scions, had to learn to keep their ambitions in check, and they very much did learn from this.
It’s still a good story for what it is, though I do still mourn the fact that we can now never get Crystal Brave specific armor and weapons in the game as it has forever been tainted.
Spoilers up to Endwalker
Out of all the "consequences" the Bloody Banquet gave characters, Thancred is the only one who still has them for the most part. He has to team up with other people to do missions he used to do solo. I wouldn't have believed you if you told me Thancred and Uriange would end up paired together back in ARR. When he goes on missions far away, he's gone for "longer" since he can't teleport. It's mostly used as a way for him to be gone for a patch, but it's still better than how they Y'shtola.
Minfillia's disappearance sets up plot points that got paid off in both ShB and EW, and unlike the other's sacrifice, she actually dies in the end.
Y'shtola might as well get her vision back since her blindness has done next to nothing for the narrative. If anything, it allows her to see things the other Scions can't, which is more a reward than anything else. Matoya's line about it killing her is a mistranslation, which annoys me to no end since people bring it up constantly.
Nanamo is the one I feel the most mixed about. On one hand, I hate they backtracked on her death, but I really like what they did with her and Raubahn afterwards. Ultimately, they should have stucked to their guns, but at least they got some of the besr character development.
The way they handle the fake out deaths are really bad. Y'shtola "dies" every expansion at this point, so I don't even blink when she's in danger. That's something they really need to fix since threatening her existence is an empty threat.
Thancred is the only one with "similar" fake outs, but I don't think the one in ShB was supposed to be a fake out in particular. That might be coming from someone who's seen similar scenes play out in multiple anime, game, and shows with similar tones, so it didn't even occur to me that others would think otherwise until I got online and saw other people's reactions.
Even before Y'shtola spells it out, the Scions sacrifice in EW was obviously not going to stick. As soon as Thancred disappeared, I figured we'd pull a Sailor Moon and bring our friends back. I just thought it'd happen after we beat Metion.
"Anyone can die"
haha, yeah, I wish. How many times has Y'Shtola come back, again?
I think maybe I’m weird but being able to go to Uldah while in canon, you can’t isn’t a hurting factor.
As a player I’m smart enough to understand what is a game and what is the story and not have it effect my enjoyment
Spoils!!!!
I don't think the bloody banquet in itself makes or breaks the lack of consequences. With reduced members on the highest decision making table (with Nanamo, Raubahn and Adeleji out of the way), it's rather easy for Lolorito to grease the right hands and make sure everyone who knows, understand it's in their best interest to just keep acting like nothing happened. As for the foreign guests at the banquet, it's not like Nanamo died in front of them, you have to wait for the fog of coup to disperse before taking any political stance. The death of the Garlean emperor and the fall of the Black Wolf won't be enough to allow infighting between the Eorzea nations. But yeah, they could have done a better job to show all the dirty tricks going on behind the scene for Lolorito to keep the ship steady. Someone like Papashan could have made some reports.
For La Noscea and the Black Shroud, sure, they would be trying a bit more to look like they are actively trying to distance themselves from us, or at least the head of states would, but unofficially, they should be about as chill as Coerthas with us. Sure, the head of states will avoid being seen having tea in our company in the meanwhile, but for the rest, we are "just too bloody useful" to quote a certain tech guy. They'll just delay, look the other way and wait for the dust to settle. I don't think any of their armed people would work too hard to find us or make the population aware we are to be reported if sighted (with wanted posters all over and the like).
It's with Thanalan that the plot seems off, they could have added another layer of politics, with the immortal flames backing us in the shadows (allowing us to do stuff for the Grand Company), while the Brass Blades and the Sultansworn… The Brass Blades probably won't do much, as Lolorito is the one behind them ultimately and he doesn't want to rock the boat too much. So a arrest warrant on the scions individually, but not much publicity at large to catch them. So the random NPC in Ul'dah wouldn't know much about it, while the individual Brass Blade could have been told to report sighting us but not try to arrest us alone. The Sultansorwn have to be on our side somehow, because some players will do the Paladin quest while doing Heavensward (as I did and that was awkward xD). So having some meetings with Papashan and others with someone from the Flames, reporting what's going on and some odd stuff the Blades are doing, would make the ultimate coup de theatre less an asspull.
As for dead characters, Y'shtola is a separate case, it's more a joke around cats having 9 lives, I don't mind if it's just one character. Minfillia never came back in the flesh, although she was possessing young girls the Ascian way in a different world for a century… not sure how that one count, more like tantalizing us that she would come back, only to kill her off definitely after giving us one last line. She wasn't dead on the spot, but she wasn't with us for 4 real life years either. Thancred manage to get through via Y'shtola's gamble, he comes out unable to use magic, probably wanted, his spy instincts took over and he has been discreet, I can live with that. And this whole ordeal serve to explain and illustrate the soul cycle, set up the stage for Shadowbringers, etc. It's heavy handed, but I can live with that.
Papalymo and Ida on the other hand… They can do magic just fine, they aren't stuck in the livestream, what gives? Oh! They were undercover to infiltrate an alamihgan resistance group, like what? That was poor writing, the writers didn't want to do much more with them, killed off Papalymo the first chance they get and got rid of Ida, with a full retcon in hand, having her failing upward into politics. They should have killed them both at the banquet and have the pugilist's sister enter the stage to do the Stormblood part sans the weird character turn around and the baggage from the first two parts and patches. It's not like we did much with Ida in the 2.0 to 2.5 anyway. Or if you want to keep Papalymo for Shinryu, kill Ida at the banquet, then have Papalymo find Lyse among the rebels while undercover and give Lyse a better background for politics than the schizo Ida/Lyse we got in Stormblood.
But the non-death that nag me the most is Gaius just casually coming back in the plot, when we ourselves barely make it back with Thancred out the inferno… ok, these high end magitek armors are good, but this good? As interesting as his side stories are, they could have made them about the same with people around him. They could even have had Nero to cement the plot lines together. But no, they had to retcon Gaius into a shounen jump villain turned allies, in very awkward twist.
Sorry for the long rant…
i skipped all cutscenes so i am here to learn something
One of those details in 2.X that makes you go "oh man" is that when you capture the ivy for good and they are saying how she is a traitor, illberd says something like "i'd rather cut my own arm than harm a friend". Then the bloddy banquet happens x')
Also Wilred's death in those patches.. man it's so gut wrenching because he was like <18 yo and just trying to grow and learn 🙁
And good that you mention the mmo aspect. I thing this plot part is one the only times that being an MMO hurt the story so. If it was single player rpg they would be able to fully explore that tension both in uldah and to parallel its story with the dragon part of HW.
I thought at the time that having Nanamo be alive was a little disappointing, but overall from ARR-EW Nanamo's character arc is so well written that I'd never sacrifice it for the shock value of her staying dead. I'm more concerned about some of the later choices on fake-out deaths. I think we need to lose a Scion permanently soon or we'll lose all sense of dramatic tension when they are in mortal peril.
Honestly, Legion from WoW learned from The Bloody Banquet. But WoW used up so many characters that I don't really feel that interested in their new ones. Especially as of late.
But this is also Final Fantasy. I'm not excusing their story choice, but the franchise itself kind of tells me that certain main story NPC's will live.
That also comes from a few decades of story knowledge and experience with Japanese storytelling.
Which is why in my comic for my wol, I actually keep nanamo dead for the full consequences
The thing that annoys me is Y'shtola can read even though she's suppose to be blind.
I appreciate your analysis. I loved this moment and the consequences. I think though that to say we didn't lose any scions is inaccurate. Minfillia never came back. The alternate Minfillia we got back was a whole different character and became a plot device. Papalymo also got destroyed. We got to see him only for a few moments more just before storm blood before his death and thus he lost his chance to become remotely as fleshed out as any of the other scions up to that point. The rest you've already mentioned but they felt weightier than they seem to have for you. The whole Ala Mhigo and Garlemald restoration stories would have never worked without it for example. And Eorzea suddenly became alive. There were more to those NPCs than we ever gave them credit for before then. And this has been reinforced in almost every side quest and job quest story since.
The lack of consequences for the bigger characters really rubbed me the wrong way. I hopped on this game when endwaljer came out so i got to go through arr all the way to 6.2 msq without having to pause and wait.
The fakeout deaths always bothered me. Its the main reason i find stormblood their weakest story expansion. After this banquet, i was so excited and locked in to this mmo.
I am really hoping if they want to actually write these death consequence stories, they don't fakeout or revive characters again.
Great video in which I agree in pretty much all points raised.
Honestly, I've long been of the opinion that the "revival" of Nanamo is the biggest misstep in FFXIV's narrative to date, and while I understand why it happened and enjoy storybeats it made possible, it also retroactively cheapened one of the biggest gutwrenches of the game.
We had to convince a friend to keep playing, since the banquet pissed him off so much. That it took away his player agency, cause if it was up to him he'd kill as many brass blades/crystal braves until the rest stand down.
While I loved the ending to ARR, my main issue with it was their failure for there to be any consequences for the clearly treasonous actions taken in Ul'dah. You get to the end of the Dragonsong war, victorious, and then it's not even so much as a slap on the wrist for Lolorito who LITERALLY orchestrated the whole thing and could've brought the Sultana back long ago. Instead he tried to have Raubahn executed and gave Ilberd enough leash (and capital) to start a war. We even faced the handmaiden who drugged Nanano and let her walk without so much as a prison sentence.
When we finally face off against Ilberd it felt like a hollow victory, the man even robbing us of a killing blow and a scion at the same time. Then we have to make nice with Lolorito's company because of plot, all while I'm still imagining the myriad ways I can dice him up while he still breathes. Lolorito never does anything remotely deserving of forgiveness even by the conclusion of Endwalker.
The whole thing just felt very hollow and unsatisfying. It's one of the reasons I didn't enjoy Stormblood as much – the whole expansion was doubling down on ignoring the bad things people did and letting them off without consequence. Yes, I'm looking at you Fordola. Don't think that your brief support in the Endwalker role quests makes you suddenly likeable.
My viewpoint is a little different from many. I see a lot of negative things in the world around me. I see video games as an escape, and recoil from games where I feel there is no hope, and Game of Thrones (though not a game) would is something I say away from. I find "good guys win" as a comfort, and "Oh that isn't going to work; let's fix that in post" as a nice reminder that things can always get better. I am able to continue through the game, despite bad things happening, because I know it's a game, an MMO, and that to make more story, I have to be okay in the end.
Thank you for this video! It's interesting to remember all the stakes that were removed in Heavensward.
I think it's kind of a balance. For one thing, you need tension and logical conclusion to very dangerous situations is that someone gets seriously hurt. On the other hand you can't kill too many characters or the feel of the story changes to a very dark and depressive. I think they ride the knifes edge quite well in balancing this dilemma. Sure, it's disappointing when there are fakeout deaths. I think part of the impact of UT zone story got deflated by player expectations of "they are not going to die anyways". I personally think there has been a little too much of plot armor for the beloved characters. But someone could literally bomb Square Enix HQ if they killed any of the scions.
I just…why were we running from the Brass Blades? The WoL could single handedly butcher every one of those pathetic jokes. Kept killing and killing until the people gave up trying to kill the WoL and instead begging them to stop and asking what it would take for the WoL to forgive the foolish sin of opposing him. Not a realistic expectation but I HATE characters that refuse to use their power to crush opposition. Just screams stupidity to me.
what disappointed me about how they handled the bloody banquet was not only the revival of nanamo, but the speed at which the situation was resolved. When lolorito straight up came up to everyone and told everyone what actually happened, it felt like a cheap irrelevant side plot rather than a nation's leadership potentially crumbling. They really should have given the whole subplot more than a few quests, and not put the resolution in 3 quests right before going to the Aery.
I went through this with a friend. We both decided not to leave courthas until things started resolving. I think that helped, but seeing everything else walked back was really disappointing. I love heavensward, but that was a stain on that expansion for a long time for me. Looking back on it now (as of ShB5.4), it payed off so much in other ways that i don't see it as a problem anymore.
I appreciated your analysis. As someone who played the story as the patches came out I was rocked by the finale of ARR for months and though I remember rolling my eyes here and there as all of the losses were reversed I was also aware it's an MMO and cut the story some slack. With taking 10 years to get all the story some of the things that would make be cringe if I was ready a novel have not had the same impact. Over all the spicy bits are amazing when they happen and like you said they have never done anything to destroy the story so they have my approval!
I was definitely not sure the Juliet maneuver with Nanamo was the right move. When she drank the poison, which everyone knew was poison, it was such a key power play to stop her before being able to dissolve the sultanate, and it would have been a really interesting move to have someone completely different take up the crown and wrestle with the legacy she left behind at the same time as a corrupt syndicate of wealthy citizens secretly pulling the strings and their own power as Sultan/Sultana, someone who wanted earnestly to make Ul'dah better but was generally powerless to do so. The WoL wouldn't even have needed to play a very large part in that development, like it's not the WoL's job to fix Ul'dah, but to the extent that it would impede the three city-states from entering into a cooperative agreement, having that kind of turmoil happening, WHILE asking Ishgard to join in the fun, that could have been a thing by itself.
What I mean to say is I kinda wish Nanamo was dead.
My experience of the Bloody Banquet was, well, surprise. It did exactly as you said: hit me out of the notion that the protagonists will just win. I didn’t pick up on the hypocrisies with the quests prior, so it did kinda just gut punch me, but I appreciate it for doing so.
My only big gripe with the ramifications is, largely, Y'shtola. It's not that I don’t like her, I appreaciate the things she does for the story, but it's more that she gets multiple second chances in moments where she does something that's dangerous and/or stupid where it feels like, if anyone has plot armor, it's Y'shtola.
As for the others, the reveal/storytelling decision that Lolorito was in control the entire time is honestly very smart, even if I didn't like him at the time. It was a classic example of the "bigger fish", but also something where Lolorito had more experience in the game than Adeledji and undercut their efforts at their own game. And, even if Lolorito had control of the situation, it was more damage control for things Adeledji was doing and not preventing those things from happening: Nanamo was still poisoned, but only non-lethally and left comatose for some time; Rauban still lost an arm; the Scions did have to scatter and flee the Braves. They were on our side, but couldn't signal support before the trap was sprung, so they supported by making the trap as ineffective as possible without visible betrayal to the Monetarists.
Spoilers!!!
I agree that too many fake out deaths can be frustrating, especially in the case of Y’shtola haha. But with the banquet I wasn’t as bothered by it.
Permanent character death is not the only way to have consequences in a story, and it can be just as damaging if it’s used as the sole way to show bad things happen. The scions end up separated from each other and MIA/exiled for quite some time. With the exception of Aymeric and the Fortemps, Ishgardians aren’t exactly friendly to you at first either. While you can visit Ul’dah for gameplay reasons (grand company, side quests, etc), it isn’t treated as if you are openly going there on a story level until you’re specifically called back. If half the scions were killed right then, they would have to be replaced by new characters that we wouldn’t know in either Stormblood or Shadowbringers, which would have hurt those expansions along with Endwalker in the long run. This isn’t counting Minfilia, whose brief appearances before Shadowbringers are essentially as a mouthpiece for Hydaelyn. She can’t exist as she was before and can’t be with the people she loves, she’s functionally dead up until her last scene as herself when she actually dies. I think if they simply eased off of scion fake deaths and gave more of them besides Thancred and G’raha something more concretely personal they have to lose it wouldn’t seem as bad.I don’t think the zero plot armor style is the kind of story they’re looking to tell, but we could get surprises in future expansions.
I was disappointed Rahban didn't turn into a vengeance murder hobo.
On my first playthrough during HW early access, I felt very cheated by the lack of consequences. Nanamo is unharmed and retains her position, Lolorito faces no consequences and arguably gets stronger, Raubahn is reinstated and his injury is functionally downgraded to a cool scar, and this is all flaunted in front of our character by Lolorito and Dewlala.
Years later, I replayed this in NG+ and found the section much more palatable. Of course Nanamo's moves could lead to mass destability. Of course Lolorito would look for a way to both preserve control AND seize power from Teledji AND pull one over the Royalists and the WoL. He comes away looking like a clever, dangerous bastard. While I still begrudged the Houdini escape, it at least felt like a resolution that was planned and well-considered by the writers.
So why did my views partially change? On one hand, I'm sure that reading a story a second time changes your interpretation. Seeing the banquet itself the second time, while knowing the eventual consequences. The magic trick has already been spoiled, and that could hurt the enjoyment of future magic shows, but at least we get to enjoy the technical skill of the sleight of hand.
But, at least for an ARR player, I think the time spent marinating cannot be understated. There was a 3-4 month gap between 2.55 and 3.0 (if only 6.55 and 7.0 would be that close together, but I digress). That's a long time to sit in stunned silence. That's a long time to watch the HW CGI trailer over and over, where Nanamo dies and Lolorito grins maniacally. That's a long time to dread how much the story will be changed in HW… and then be shocked when all consequences have been undone by lv54.
Newer players without the 3mo forced pause are not immune to this; I've watched enough MSQ streamers to feel confident that this is not a complaint exclusive to 2.0 players. But I do think that there was some broken trust in making this feel so permanent and so certain, letting players absorb that for months at the longest or around 50 quests at the fastest, and then doing a magic trick. Lolorito undid everything to expedite the story and to show his relative power and our WoL's relative helplessness, which might be good character building for him, but not without repercussions in the storytelling.
Did this channel used to have a lot more videos or am I losing my mind
Just wanted to say that im relatively new to FFXIV (stormblood lvling quests) and your videos are really good! Keep it up!
I personally love the Bloody Banquet AND the aftermath.
Yes, a lot of it was undone, and yes it was largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, particularly the player experience where we can just go back whenever.
With that being said, narratively it was crucial for multiple stories. Y'shtola, while blind and still largely (currently) unhindered also is constantly using aether to see and granny warned her that that would harm her in the long run, something we see in the conjurer story with Sylphie nearly killing herself by expending her own aether.
Thancred also went from playboy to being depressed and he never really recovers.
Most importantly, it also showcases that the world DOESN'T need the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems for them, something Alphinaud hadn't yet figured out even by the midpoint of Heavensward. Uldah solves its problems, we are brought in to help but for the most part they take care of things themselves. Nanamo's death is reversed but her plans are irrevocably halted by Lololito. Her plans to make Uldah a Republic is ended and she has to maintain the Sultanate, something that would not have happened had the Bloody Banquet never happened because she would have abdicated the throne in an official announcement right then and there.
The consequences weren't halted, they were redirected and the story shows it off going forward.
Granted, I just beat Stormblood and am preparing to go into Shadowbringers, which I'm super excited for so no spoilers beyond Stormblood in replies, please. ^_^
I personally love the Bloody Banquet AND the aftermath.
Yes, a lot of it was undone, and yes it was largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, particularly the player experience where we can just go back whenever.
With that being said, narratively it was crucial for multiple stories. Y'shtola, while blind and still largely (currently) unhindered also is constantly using aether to see and granny warned her that that would harm her in the long run, something we see in the conjurer story with Sylphie nearly killing herself by expending her own aether.
Thancred also went from playboy to being depressed and he never really recovers.
Most importantly, it also showcases that the world DOESN'T need the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems for them, something Alphinaud hadn't yet figured out even by the midpoint of Heavensward. Uldah solves its problems, we are brought in to help but for the most part they take care of things themselves. Nanamo's death is reversed but her plans are irrevocably halted by Lololito. Her plans to make Uldah a Republic is ended and she has to maintain the Sultanate, something that would not have happened had the Bloody Banquet never happened because she would have abdicated the throne in an official announcement right then and there.
The consequences weren't halted, they were redirected and the story shows it off going forward.
Granted, I just beat Stormblood and am preparing to go into Shadowbringers, which I'm super excited for so no spoilers beyond Stormblood in replies, please. ^_^
They need to work on developing a phasing technology like wow has. So players can have the world progress without needing to worry about so much about the world state.
just another cat mom complaining
i kinda crushed on Eline and was sad.
This is why Endwalker was predictable and bad at the end. It was also quite laughable how many people cried and praised it, followed by realization with videos later like "how bad was it really". With that said, nothing is gonna beat Shadowbringer in terms of story and I'll always stand by those words.
When I discovered the banquet did not end the story but continued into HW, i immediately became disengaged with it and became a story skipper. I did recently do new game+ to silence all the tools that kept telling me I was missing out, but what i found was a long, droning, predictable epic that made me utterly hate the scions. ShB’s story was great though. But they need to stop this scion bs and let the WoL be their own person, instead of portraying you as a raving beast whom the scions keep on a leash to use you against whoever pisses in their tea.
Sent here by the algorithm and really enjoyed this video!
So many story analysis videos consider story summary actual analysis and I love you for avoiding that issue.
The script is concise, the analysis perceptive of all nuances in the story (and from a development standpoint, too, which I think people undersell a bunch because criticism shouldn't depend on it or be swayed by it because no matter how tough the development conditions a game is a game and a story a story.)
And I very much agree with your sentiment on death within the story.
I think FF14's biggest storytelling flaw (outside of its prose, which is another topic entirely) is in how it handles death, but in my eyes it's actually one specific trope that's the biggest issue, and that is the fake death framing.
Yes, characters surviving over and over again can really tamper with the sense of tension, but even that issue can be softened somewhat if you just put characters in danger rather than frame their fate as if they might be dead.
Y'Shtola is the biggest offender of this because I actually think Thancred's lack of ability to manipulate aether actually becomes more relevant than you posit in the video.
He has to rely on everyone else to imbue his bullets for him in Shadowbringers and would be pretty helpless without his friends in that case.
But I also think it still feels like a slap on the wrist because everyone else covers for his flaw.
A lot of people posit the idea that a Scion should be killed to bring back the tension, but I think giving consequences to Y'Shtola sight and Thancred's inability to manipulate aether already would go a long way, for two exmples.
Separate them from people who cover their weaknesses and create new struggles for them based on their weaknesses they have to brain out. I would be immediately compelled.
But going back to the point I began with, stuff like this could simply replace the fake death trope they like so much because if it weren't for the solid character arcs we get in return for soome of the bigger fake deaths, growth and response from the characters, I would long have stopped liking this story.
You don't have to use death to build tension and tell meaningful stories.
In fact, I would claim one of the strongest aspects of Shadowbringers and Endwalker is creating a believable danger worse than death, even if they still fall back to fake death.
In the words of Curtis, Lyse's father, "Death is easy. Living is harder."
In my eyes all they really need to do is drop the fake death stuff.
Just be really sure if you want to kill a character and stick to that and if you aren't, create struggles relevant to them they have to work around.
You don't even necessarily have to make arcs out of those struggles, either.
I hope now that they essentially have a blank canvas to work with, the cheap stuff goes away, this why I'm personally excited for Dawntrail and this new possible saga – FF14 is now a firmly established MMO, which is something special to begin with, but it also resolved most of the legacy it was bound to, this is essentially the first fully original story, though it still has the same cast and world.
I think if not in Dawntrail then in the bigger picture they absolutely can do something better than this and that excites me so much as someone to whom this story is among favourites.
I sort of got spoiled to the Bloody Banquet because before I first experienced it, I watched a gamer do a speed run of the entire Heavensward plotline and he spoiled the entire Heavensward story for me, but that's not his fault as he had to go through certain trials that were definite story spoilers. Even so, seeing Nanamo get poisoned and my character being dragged to the executioner's block under charges of regicide and seeing Raubhan go ape** and outright murder Teledeji was still impactful. Seeing Alphinaud hate himself for creating the Crystal Braves, not realizing that we had been in the wrong first for recruiting Ilberd, not realizing how evil he was(though his evil was a noble cause to restore Ala Mhigo, and had it not been for his betrayal that caused the Braves to be disbanded, Nidhogg would still be alive and keeping up the Dragonsong War forever and we would have never had Heavensward or Stormblood).
I'm sure you have heard about Aeris Gainsborough and how her death by the Masamune caused a sh**storm which resulted in false "Mew Under The Truck" rumors about how to revive her and add her back to your party. I think the reason these rumors existed and people denied Aeris's death was because we in the States never got to play Final Fantasy V, and in that game, we also lose a party member in Galuf, when he dies permanently and the others try futilely to save him with healing magic. Krile becomes an orphaned grandchild but Galuf's spirit grants her his abilities, showing that, yes, he IS REALLY DEAD AND GONE. (Well, not gone in the story sense as he joins the Braves to help destroy Exdeath and seal the Void for good.)
While it might have been an interesting story for FFXIV if, instead of bringing back Namano, Ul'dah had undergone a period of chaos and you would be unable to go there or teleport there until the story reached a certain point. Namano was permanently dead and Raubhan is sentenced to death, the Monetarists now ruled Ul'dah and put a bounty on your character… but halfway through your exile, Lolorito and that woman he was with have you meet up in Limsa and reveal that while Lolorito now is the ruler of Ul'dah under the Syndicate, he has manipulated things to dissolve all charges of patricide on you so you are now free to come back. Likewise, Y'shtola is now permanently dead and maybe Y'mitria, her sister, could join the Scions. Y'shtola's spell teleported Thancred to Dravania and she sacrificed her aether to use the spell. (Matoya said that using Flow was very dangerous.) I have no doubt Yda and Paplymo did not die when they cast the explosion spell to bring the palace down, those two are as strong as dragon's teeth. XD
My story ideas would have made for a much more interesting story, but I not Yoshida. I know he worries about his fanbase, and had he done these ideas, FFXIV may have not been as popular as it is today. If anything, while the Bloody Banquet and the aftermath now is a flesh wound, my story ideas would have made it a more fatal gash and we never have reached Dawntrail or even Stormblood as the player base might have dwindled to a trickle, too little to maintain the servers and keep FFXIV. Yoshida is like Godbert – he knows that making the Endwalker relic grind just be for the capped tomestones is boring, non-engaging, and the easiest relics to get.
However, he knows that only 10% of the player base is going to respect a grind similar to the relics of old, requiring you to delve into old content and farm money and random grunk to complete each step. The remaining 90% of the players are just there to complete the MSQ, then AFK in Ul'dah doing the Manderville dance while waiting for queues for capped tomestone roulettes and Wondrous Tails. Changing the story to be a sad ending would not only tax the dev team and programs, but also axe those 90% who are just there for the story, as they would gladly go to Wizard101 and spend all their salary checks on pay-to-win just to hear every dialogue voice-acted.
Sorry, I tend to rant a bit. 🙂
"They're clearly in the wrong, we're clearly in the right" Meanwhile me in Praetorium during Lahabrea's speech: "Oh no, are we the bad guys?"
As much as I would have LOVED Ul'dah to be a chaotic mess where being spotted by guards would mean you'd be imprisoned.. I know that's not realistic in an MMORPG. What if there's a seasonal event or a class unlock in Ul'dah that you want but simply can't because you haven't progressed far enough into the story, then you're mostly wanting to get through the story for mechanical reasons (which, to be fair, a lot of people do).
So as I've been going through the story, I've set limits on myself, for roleplay reasons. There's parts of the story where it just makes no sense to be able to teleport back and forth, so I don't. I'm in that area until I've finished what I'm there to do.
Also also Ul Namo's fake death absolutely didn't make me think that all characters were safe after that. I was still shocked whenever the possibility arose. But it was things OUTSIDE of the story which made me question things like "..Well I know this character isn't in trouble because I've seen them in screenshots released this week" or "I don't think they'd bring back this voice actor for one cutscene, they must have a bigger part to play later" (that one, I admit, I was wrong with).
While I can see where you're coming from, and can even remember vividly spotting the same issues, I can't say it bothered me much. Simply put, most games have this dissonance, where what you can do gameplay-wise contradicts the narrative. It can be as simple as controlling a no-nonsense character and having them run in circles, destroying their characterization. I think these caveats are natural though, and unless it's especially egregious, are mostly forgivable. I think you make a stronger point when it comes to characters not dying, this is a bigger issue for sure, but doesn't have easy solutions. Some characters have become too significant narratively and killing them may not necessarily lead to a better story. Would Nanamo staying dead have lead to a better and more interesting story? It's hard to say. Anyways, interesting video, I appreciated hearing your perspective.
hell yea subbed, I rlly enjoy these kinds of vids! I'd love to hear ur thoughts on plot happenings in further expansions as well ~
Some time ago I decided to play through ARR with an Alt and then went on to play Heavensward. At one point I found a character that had been, absent for reasons. 👀 And it suddenly hit me. ‘How long did we have to wait to know if these characters actually died or not!?’ I don’t remember anymore, it’s been… over 8 years. 😅 But it feels like it was a Long time to be hanging from that particular cliffhanger. I guess I didn’t suffer much for it, as I honestly don’t remember. 😳 But this video made me wonder how other players felt about it. Thank you for your hard work. 👍
Compared to the pure annoyance of seeing Zenos and Asahi walking around again, the un-murdering of Nanamo was very welcome and deftly done. Plus, as you say, the for-realz death of Harchefaunt and its lasting trauma on the WoL (mostly hinted at by dialog choices and some of the sound clips in the Endwalker finale, but still there) are consequences done right. As you say, this storyline taking place in a MMO with a persistent world makes some bits of narrative dissonance inevitable. Why do the tribal quests keep having the same three people get kidnapped so you can rescue them over and over? It's an artifact of the medium.
I personally still feel very fond of the ARR finale and honestly don't agree that it felt like it lacked consequences. In a real sense this is the death of Minfilia; she just has cameos as a ghost for another few patches. I think the undoing of the other losses does actually feel satisfying (this is as someone who was a fan of Digimon Adventure as a kid and still has fond memories of the regular occasions on which the group got split up and spent an arc or so finding each other again) and Lolorito's co-opting of the plan works well as a way to justify not actually locking you out of the main cities. When I don't believe a death in FFXIV I'm definitely not thinking about Nanamo, I'm thinking more about the myriad dramatic wounds that various scions have suffered and recovered from across the story.
I'm not sure I reeeeeeally agree with this analysis. To say that the Bloody Banquet was walked back is to make a lot of assumptions about things that you never got to confirm, for sure, for yourself.
You don't know for sure that Nanamo dies, you get apprehended before you check what state she's in. You don't know that the scions are dead, all of them pull risky maneuvers that could have killed them, but which they also might have gotten away from. I don't think the Bloody Banquet really needed to have killed off any of the main characters to have done its job at changing the tone of the story.
That being said, I've also heard other people, JoCat, mostly, say that they feel as if the results of the Bloody Banquet were a retcon. It surprised me the first time I heard it, but I suppose it must be a sentiment that's floating around out there.
But. I dunno. If I had to guess I would say that people who feel as if the Bloody Banquet was re-written are probably engaging with the game in a different way than I am. If you were enjoying the story as an outside force, observing it while detatched from your character and their motivations and attachments, then you'd probably have the expectation that at least one person died in this whole fiasco. But if, like me, you were trying to be inside of your character's head for the duration of the game (and you like the Scions) then finding out that they all survived doesn't feel like a cop-out. Cuz that's what your character, and by extension, you, were hoping for and working to help make happen in the first place. No one visits their friends in the hospital after a skydiving incident and says. "You know it would have made more sense if you died there, y'know."