Echo’s Scripe watched my video on his stream and pointed out a few takeaways I missed in my original video regarding FFXIV vs World of Warcraft raids. Thanks Scripe for the shoutout (:
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As I'm watching this, I did want to point out that the idea that Scripe had regarding loot funneling is kind of already done but really makes little difference. Perhaps if racing to world first in a raid tier took longer than a few days then it might be useful. But raid tiers are cleared incredibly quickly compared to WoW raids (especially considering a savage raid tier is 4 bosses as opposed to 10-12 bosses of a WoW raid).
Beyond that, you can only get one item per boss per week. And most of the important raid items require multiple items to purchase gear, which also takes extra time to go out and do. Even more importantly, with every raid tier comes a new tier of crafted gear which is already at the proper item level and is extremely powerful, requiring little more than competent crafters to hand out the gear to the raiders before they even set foot in the raid.
9:35 This so reminds me of Legion when we hunted these random Legendary drops. I admit, I didnt join the race, because the drop was just super random and I didnt see the logic to put so much effort into it. I loved Legion but this system was really bad…
I actually liked seeing that footage but then again, I cant relate ^^°
Difference for the PTR is Blizzard >need< the testing done for them; rumour being they can't even form a mythic team internally, where as Square have an internal test/raid team.
While the formal ToS for FFXIV is no-addons. The informal (pretty much up to the wire) is "fine, but don't be a dick about it". While world first races are just a different animal to normal play. You absolutely could break the normal game with superior raid addons, and the majority of the community won't use it or care. These elite wow teams could just read a boss guide and be done with FFXIV raiding in an afternoon. But they don't, because that's not the point – the discovery is where the fun is.
As he said, there's no viable technical defense against such advanced addons. But the "why would you do that?" defense works just fine in FFXIV. There's no way those ultimate clears would be as sweet with an addon barking out all the mechanics to you.
Not only did you feature on both their channels, they both (mostly) agreed and both subbed! Gargantuan W's for you, Quazii. Keep up the great work my guy!
sooo much quazii content !!!!
Quazii: Lemme flex with my shiny UwU first kill on this awesome video to make it even more amazing!
All ppl reacting: AAAAAAAH SPOILERS HALP SEND CHAT-RESCUE BOAT xDDD
Really glad your highly appreciated videos are getting more reach through those big brain raid leaders 😀
I think one of the biggest things to using weak auras for ff14 and racing to world first, people will be able to find out. You need the proof, streaming/logs and which else people use. People will notice that things are off and then the accusations will come out. They did that with world first kill on TEA, and i will bet it will happen if weak auras are used.
To add on your point about no specific static composition in xiv, the UCoB world first team have DRK in their team despite DRK seen a weakest tank compared to both WAR and PLD at the time and when asked why they bring a DRK the answer is just "cause i like playing it"
usually either you reschudel or find someine in pf or a friend from another static
It has to be really strange for you. Scripe and limit_max two of your idols in wow would probably never have crossed your videos when you used to make wow videos, but now both of them have seen and subscribed to your channel after your switch to ff14. Sometimes our dreams get fulfilled in the weirdest ways
One thing that's maybe worth pointing out, is that the chances of you having any kind of Cactbot or even triggers working Day 1 of a new raid release in XIV is highly unlikely. Even with a dedicated programmer on your team working on that, ACT and XIVQuickLauncher both break completely on patches. This has been the case for a while now, where SE seem to scramble the network traffic to make updating third-party tools to the latest patch much more difficult than it was before. The chances of someone being able to get useful third-party tools into the hands of World Proggers for a Savage tier is highly unlikely. Maybe Ultimates where the prog is longer, but even then, I kind of doubt it.
In FF the Savage progression is so fast (especially for WF racers), the tier dies in two days, WF racer groups don't need a bench because they can plan weeks ahead with that two days.
Ultimates die slower but generally HC groups don't progress for weeks. And for midcore and casual raiding groups can always just reschedule those days where the goldfish is drowning 😀
I find these kinds of reactions incredibly interesting, a very good listen!
Another minor point that ties into the bad luck protection, if you get invited to come on your bis tank you can use that and gear coffers to gear up alts without having to bring the specific job
While it is true that you can use addons to trivialize mechanics in both games, even in the world first race in FF14, the big difference is that you still have to figure out the mechanics during the race.
In WoW, everything is already figured out from ptr and world first is just pure execution. In FF, you have to learn mechanics, strategize, AND work on execution even with addons. Addons can help you get through mechanics that you've already done or figured out, but they can't do anything when you're still trying to figure out what the mechanic is in the first place. And I feel like for many, that challenge of figuring out mechanics in the first place is a HUGE part of the fun of progging a raid that just released. You only need to look at how much fun Limit and Echo are having doing Eden blind to see proof of that.
If you have to use tools you create, or even tools that aren’t part of the packaged game, then you shouldn’t get credit for world first. Might as well advocate that all athletes take performance enhancing drugs to compete.
This bench concept intrigued me. Our static group has been raiding since the beginning of ARR. So far, we have cleared every Extreme, Coils, and Savages before the Echo dropped. We somewhat reformed during middle of Heavensward Era because time and drama. But all in all, we been there for years. During our raid, we never had this bench concept. I have a perfect attendance but others do skip raid nights. In order to refill, we don't rely on benches but the former raider from my team. The ones that left usually didn't mind helping out. Also, we have crosslinkshell friends to step in as well. Worse comes to worse, we just do Party Finder. I think I know why this is. FFXIV raids are pretty well designed. There are less randomness. I think it's easier to find friends or pugs to fill in the spot.
I thought the point you were trying to make about weakauras and the PTR was that in FFXIV you wouldn't be able to have usable timers from the very first pull on the live version of a fight. There would be at least some amount of time before a full set of timers were made available, because the people coding it need to see the full fight before they can give it to you. Sure, Scripe could have a dedicated person doing that on the fly while they were progging a boss, but he'd still have to do at least some of the boss blind and without timers before anything got made.
Would be more meta, if you reacted to Scripe reacting to you reacting to Max reacting to you
32 people in a roster?
If they brought their entire roster over to FF14, they could have 4 statics progging at the same time every week.
They could even have contests with each other in their FC with who can get the world first, second and third spots assuming they prog it fast enough.
I think one of the things that people like Scripe forget is how much information the WoW client exposes through its addon api which is why weakauras are so powerful. One of the reasons why Cactbot is so comparatively lackluster is because the only consistent way to get encounter information mid-fight is by reading the combat log and a lot of the specifics of fight mechanics simply aren't communicated in the log itself.
This has been tremendously helpful in solving my confusions surrounding Limit and Max. Thanks for the conversation!
Testers at SE:
Paid people, professionals, who report bugs and glitches.
Testers at Blizzard:
Players that first have to pay for their game+gametime, do not report every single bug/glitch they find.
also, there is "global" release for expansion, but not for raids.
in my opinion. world of warcraft gearing system need to be easy but. what you do with that gear no. easy gearing, harder bosses.
To add on to certain points.
Having a bench in FFXIV is also common for some world first groups. At most 4 people are sat at the bench for some. These 4 also actively participate in the race as they will become the coaches and the third perspective. Doing a raid with only your eyes can sometimes blind you to some mechanics. These people would often be in charge of helping out taking a screenshot of the text of a debuff or clipping moments for easier problem solving on mechanics. A more common term that is seen in FFXIV for this would be called the '9th man' but this can extend to many more players. World first groups would also hire a lot of dedicated crafters to craft the best crafted gear, food, and pots for them. These crafters are also often in charge of pentamelding gear as that takes some time to do as well(again pentamelding has been made faster due to a system update in Shadowbringers).
Using 'meta' jobs used to be a thing back in Stormblood and prior. This was due to every job giving enemies a certain 'debuff'. For instance, a MNK was always avoided as it was the only job that applied blunt resist down to the enemy and no other job benefit from it. Having a BRD/MCH in the party always required you to have a DRG because of piercing resist down. These are of course relics of the past and are now gone. That said though there are still some composition stuff that are practiced when it comes to world first raiding. Most world first groups would actually try to have a look on the overall performance of certain jobs and deciding on their line up prior to a raid tier's release.
Funneling loot in this game is also done. While it is seen as not as important. For groups that aim for high ranks on FFLogs and whatnot will more or less do this. This is more frequently done when a raid tier is accompanied by an Ultimate. As such, for Eden's Gate, plenty of groups ran a 4-4 split where you have 4 mains with 4 alts and swapping again for a second set of reclears. This does not only allow for faster kill times and higher parses but also getting readily geared for the coming Ultimate. For sure, this coming expansion's raid tier will have the same as it's already confirmed that The Dragonsong War (Ultimate) will be with that very first raid tier.
For programming a personalized cactbot, world first raiders do sometimes do this especially for an ultimate as they will be raiding longer hours and it can get exhausting for the brain to prog such long fights. That said, this often boils down to how that specific group operates. Other than that, it is not common practice.
You are a very reasonable person, Quazii.
I'm just hoping that the influx of world first WoW raiders doesn't make people think they need to use addons in FFXIV – otherwise I want them to enjoy and have fun!
Regarding scripting and cactbot – in FF a lot of the roadblocks like Lights Rampant, Lions Rampant, Hello World, and various mechanics in Ultimate require big braining to solve. I think that cactbot can easily tell you information and provide timelines about AOE damage, shit like Almagest or doom or various debuffs, but it can’t create a solution for the puzzle. Lions rampant took a hell of a long time to solve and I don’t think that Cactbot being updated would have helped much. You know the mechanic you get but figuring out how to solve it properly and consistently requires human effort that cactbot cannot help you with.
I think a very big point that's usually glossed over is that bosses in FF die very quickly compared to wow. World-race pace kills happen in a matter of an hour or two for the first two floors, and only marginally longer for the third floor. Therefore, there's no need to make any weak aura equivalents for those fights since the time it would take to develop and bug fix them is comparable to the kill time. The final floor is the only floor where it might give an advantage.
The addition of weak auras is actually much more impactful in ultimate races. You can watch POVs of some of the guys from TPS who have a tts explaining wormhole to them, etc., in addition to auto waymark presets for the different phases. Those things are an explicit advantage even if they aren't required since they offer reminders and precision that bypass human error.
But ultimately, SE has been doing a much better job of obfuscating their fights since TEA. I believe the prevalence of triggernometry plug-ins auto-solving fate calibrations in TEA forced their hand even if they haven't publicly acknowledged their existence.
I watched both Max and Scripe's reactions and the more I think about it, the more I think of the time I wasted on WoW. Especially that I have to constantly play to catch up whereas FF I can take a couple of days off for real-life stuff and still won't be penalized. WoW is such a toxic game and I wasted so much time on it for nothing.
Savage does come out at the same time as normal, except for the week of a new Expansion Release
The whole thing about Scripe saying the FFXIV WF raiders are most likely using mods and whatnot to clear ultimates and savages so quickly depresses me. I liked thinking that people were clearing these Ultimates without such tools. I probably shouldn’t have put them on a pedestal. I think I liked it better when I was naive and ignorant. (If what he says/surmises) is true.
Man I love your content. You brought me to tanking in WoW. And I haven't played wow seriously since you left the game. Now I have a lot of friends from uni talking about making static raids in FFXIV, and we're not even max lvl yet 😀
in ff14 some fights do have rng but that was mostly in stormblood. The rng was for what phase the boss will go into. O9S the rng was what phase the fight started with. O10s the rng has some rng via spins or flips but those were super telegraphed and those specific attacks you knew exactly when they were gonna happen. O7S had Phases again be rng.
basically the ff14 boss fight rng isn't really attacks its more phases ie what sequence of mechanics need to be dealt with first as opposed to later.
normal vs savage. Normal gives you some mechanics but not all. Normal basically gives the aoe markers. So you know if they are a cone or line so you know for savage when the markers aren't there. When you see that same attack being cast. Well in theory anyway. Starboard and larboard in O11S always threw me off so i had to use ACT to know if one is left or right.
I feel inclined to share my experience as a crafter preparing gear for a savage raid team to contrast the gear funneling WoW players have to do – namely how much the crafters play a huge role and to give some perspective on the effort they have to put in based off Shadowbringers. (Skip to the bottom for a TL;DR)
First off – in ShB the normal raid released two weeks after launch day, two weeks before the savage raid race. Current crafted gear has never been available until savage releases. While the normal gear will be equal to crafted gear in terms of item level, raiders are weekly gated with how quickly these can be earned. You MAY have 3 to 5-ish good normal raid pieces going into the first savage fight depending on your priorities. Also, only crafted gear can be overmelded, which I'll go over a little later, thus making them have a higher potential value than normal gear based on stats alone.
As an omnicrafter you'll have ~1 month to prog the MSQ and max out all of the DoH/DoL jobs. From there you must gear yourself up (crafter/gatherer wise) and unlock your master recipes for ~every job~ while hypothesizing what stats you'll need to gather the new endgame materials as well as craft the new raid gear.
None of your crafter/gatherer needs are known until the patch, in essence making raid gear crafting is as much as a race/puzzle as the teams going into the savages. Gathering the raw materials is a sprint to figure out what comes from where and how much you'll need for your team. Solo, this easily takes several hours alone for just one set of gear meaning you'd definitely need a dedicated gathering team to funnel materials to the crafters going for WF (or lots of gil). Also a significant amount of base materials required are obtained only from tomestones, or badges of justice for WoW, rewarded from endgame dungeons, raids, and trials. Most groups will have their raiders stock up and trade mats once the quantities are known (or just have lots of gil/outside resources).
I also feel it's important to note you'll need to do several pre-crafts for the components before you can even attempt a final product, at least 3 to 5+ that should be HQ'd just to increase your chances for HQ'ing the finished gear. If you fail or it turns out normal quality, you're boned and you've wasted up to 30 mins of work. Within a day the crafter macros will be optimized and widespread knowledge, but on release this can be very stressful.
The first fight is usually slaughtered while you're still working on your first few pieces.
Overmelding has a depreciating chance of success with any attempt following the initial base slots in the gear – usually 17% for the third, 10% for the fourth, and finally 7% chance for the last one. On average I'd say it can take anywhere from 30-100 materials total to max out depending on your rng. All this has to happen within the span of a few hours – if you don't have the gear ready for your raiders by the time they get into the 3rd wing it could really hurt their progression. At the end of the day raiders gain about an additional 6-7% worth of total stats (~13% additional secondary stats) from overmelds compared to the normal raid gear, and you'll have access to them much earlier. WF raiders will definitely want everything pentamelded, while more casual groups can prog with less, if any overmelds at all. And ultimately all this work goes out the window once they get upgrades from the savage kills, but you've played a huge part in helping them succeed.
I realize that's a lot of information and I tried to be as brief as reasonable, but there's still quite a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes that the WoW refugees should be aware of when it comes to FFXIV races. The process mostly repeats from one raid tier to the next, minus the need for unlocking new master recipes. Some WF races will opt into getting EX weapons if they're struggling with DPS checks towards the later patches, but crafters are always in high demand whenever a new raid hits.
TL;DR The raiders have it easy; the crafters have all the work, but seemingly nowhere near as depressing as in WoW. It's mostly a short burst of effort versus an elongated rng grind and chores. Crafters fulfil a very rewarding role.
Scripes is wrong in his thinking that shit like that won't be detected. Let alone think that world first raiders and other streamers aren't being watched by SE staff. Even more so in the fact that he thinks it would be easy to program lmao. Unlike WoW, where there is API's and easy access to game data, FF14 only really allows the reading of combat log and visual screen data. Cacpot only works off of combat log and while you can definitely code for encounters, you definitely can't make that shit day 1 let alone week 1 into on release raiding. It's nothing at all like how WoW is with their addons and even if Raiders do eventually use those addons it just isn't feasible for world first progs.
What Scripe is talking about at 33:46 is already done, I think?
I don't think it puts stuff on your screen (there's no point, boss abilities are already marked on the ground), but I know for a fact I've seen lists that get scrolled down that call exactly when bosses will use abilities.
There is a problem though: depending on how fast you kill the boss, you trigger phase transitions, and bosses sometimes use abilities in slightly different orders based upon how quickly you kill the boss. I know I've definitely seen the lists of boss abilities and when the boss would use the abilities, and I've also seen people use tools that trigger sound effects based off of certain messages appearing in the combat log.
Edit: And this stuff was done back in ARR.
WoW vets bonding over FFXIV is such a novel thing to me still, haha.
when will quazii release his UI for FFXIV!!
Oh no, I feel like there is going to be a huge wave of bans if people are so vocal about add-ons