Double Reacts while CURRENT.
https://ffxivmobile.com/web202409/index.html#/
Rinon Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTT5LGWt35k&ab_channel=Rinon
0:00 – Intro
7:48 – Wake Up M4
19:37 – FFXIV Mobile
59:31 – Current Break
1:21:08 – A Blunt Conversation About Healing
3:08:41 – New Hall of Novice.
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Im curious about the mobile version. Hopium inc: Kinda looks like ARR classic, Minfilia def sounded different, wondering about a pc port….and wondering even more about a Switch port. Have to wait and see what the end product is. Iirc ff4 the after years rolled out in chapters and i think you paid for them as they came out. So maybe theyll do that?
Regarding the 'healer main' poll, one of the reasons you may see a discrepancy in your numbers is that, particularly at a casual level, it is rather easy to use many roles on the same WoL.
For example, I would get comfortable on a new fight as a DPS early patch, but put my capped tomes into healer gear and switch to healer once I stopped dying to my own mistakes, all whilst using tank in my dungeon roulettes. By the end of the patch I would fill in wherever the group wanted.
I am both not a healer main, yet play enough to be aware of the issues they face.
Since I dislike both the rigid 1 and 2 minute rotations of tank/DPS and the idea of extra DoTs, my own ideas to solve healer boredom tend to lean towards combos and multi-effect buttons. All tanks have bonus effects on their 1-2-3 combos, and I think healers could pulse relevant support effects similar to the selfish versions the tanks have (small heals, shields, HoTs and mit). Combined with some end of combo bonuses like Paladin getting the 'option' of a buffed free clemency, but for benefic II on Ast for example and you have all sorts of tools unlocking by pressing more initial buttons. Choices to made in the 30 seconds between raid-wides. A good healer would presss 1-2-3 and a buffed heal since they know they have the time, whereas a panicked/inexperienced one would gcd heal thrice and lose boss damage and mana.
There is also irony in looking to tanks for solutions since their current level of self-sustain is part of the issue for many. Any increase in healer output would need to be balanced in a reduction in the current party healing output given the prevalence of level synching, and as much as I love the WAR life, I think tanks could sufffer if a major healer rework happens.
Very much a sprout, and very much one that has no real grasp on the two healer classes I occasionally run, so I'll concede off the rip I lack the experience to meaningfully discourse on the specifics of how classes, job balancing, and such have negatively impacted the healers function. However, having degrees in dramaturgy and English, I have some quibbles with the framing and argument structure that left me lukewarm.
The healer role suffers from an unengaging gameplay experience due to a lack of availble risk v reward opportunities, the simplification of tech/introduction of multiple ogcd heals, and predictability of damage distribution in content. As far as I can gather, that's the message being communicated, which is a totally rad and perfectly fair supposition ; the narrative framing of the stages of grief while cute stretched the argument to the point where ideas were repeating and not being expound on in any meaningful way. The lack of volitial skills that encourage on the spot risk vs reward decision making resulting in no creative gameplay possibilities was the only supporting argument reinforced and it was done so intermittently over separate chapters with the only distinguishing differences being what hyperspecific class text surrounded it.
This persons a veteran high skill level player, whom I presume primarily derives their job from techical self actualization of a games systems and tools. Which as someone who speedruns games I absolutely understand, however the title of needing to talk about healer implies a broad audience and the argument should make efforts to consider that audience. Because if the argument their making that healer is fundamentally unfun in it's current state is true, guess what, everyone should be worried about that!
Give us examples of what tanks and dps currently have that facilitate creative engaging gameplay and contrast it with the most exciting (but ultimately still worse) gameplay healers can play at this point. Use that as opportunity to hypothesize a selection of added/removed skills(using the time to mention previous skills like cleric stance) and walk us through how this toolkit spices things up not only for the healer but the party as a whole. Acknowledge that a significant player population doesn't play optimally and mitigate that concern by displaying cases where suboptimal play with the proposed skills still adds to or atleast doesn't diminish the experience as a whole (aka raising skill cap + maintaing skill floor). Admit the hypothetical would take time to implement and work the kinks out of, and capitalize on what can be changed about present and future content to make fights more entertaining before and after the hypothetical change ( vary the encounter design). All admit its rough, but that'd be my outline were i arguing for the videos premise.
Hopefully this has felt coherent and my ignorance isn't blinding me to some greater thesis statement i missed, but im serious in that if this is really is a problem healers as a whole are facing then its bad news bear for EVERYONE. Boring gameplay leads to unengaged players, unengaged players perform poorly, poor performances beget party frustrations, and party frustrations culminate in lashing out one another. If that cycle goes on long enough it will instill cynicism and progressively louder toxic behavior. I'm not of the belief every role has to be for everyone, but i do think every role should be fun for someone. Because man I've been in fights where 1/4 the party was loudly not having fun, resulting in tense silence or ocassionally catching strays that made me a first time clearing sprout feel bad about not knowing enough about the encounter. Both situations frankly were enough to log me out for a day, and if that becomes a common vibe I know I will not be sticking around to fester in that.
To throw my 2 cents into the ring, I find the gameplay challenge for healers being "use your mits effectively such that you never need to drop damage" is actually a good one, it's just the available tools for it take away from that challenge.
With gcds being appropriate backups (except in key cases such as white mage lilies since they're damage neutral with blood lily), mapping out your ogcds on a fight by fight basis is the fun of healers, basically script-writing the solution for the fight by playing through it then repeating that script on future runs (which all jobs do, every job has their key mits they press at certain times during the fight, or at least should).
The problem with that, as Rinon brings up, is that you have a slew of different abilities that don't really interact. Order of ogcd usage should matter. Some should buff or combo off of others. Or even delay others. Forcing you to choose between them where the choice has actual value.
Thus if ogcd usage had a logical tree to it rather than a bucket of ogcds, I think that'd go a ways to making the script-writing portion of learning a fight for healers interesting. Other jobs having perhaps more mit than is necessary and pushing healers out of the ring is a different and related issue, and one worth looking at, but for the most part for healers the immediate thing I'd do is add more thought to mit planning in how they interact.
GG!!!!!
on the poll i said no but i actually main three classes (filthy casual, don't have the time to do hardcore raid), gunbreaker, sage and red mage, and ofc sage has to do damage to heal so… maybe doesn't count?
Used to main resto shaman in wow, but stopped playing when they broke it in WOTLK
Just remember, the person who started the "Healer Strike" on the forums has never stepped foot into extreme or savage content, ever.
There are two spectrums to the healer issues:
1. Savage and Ultimate raiders feeling 'Bored' because they play with other high end raiders and nothing ever goes wrong, so they don't need their toolkits to beat content.
2. Casual players that can't even play the game as it currently is, but want jobs to be more difficult, so they can complain later that the jobs are too hard and need to be fixed. (Lmao viper).
This game cannot add complexity due to the playerbase being overwhelmingly bad, the 1-70th percentile of players cant even press their 1-2-3 combo in the correct order, where as the 71-90th percentile can clear a savage fight on content, and the remaining 91-100th percentile can clear with ease and go onto deleting ultimates.
The disparity of skill levels exists because there is no social conflict between players, if somebody is bad they need to be told they are bad so they can improve. This however is looked down on as a 'toxic' mentality. Since when did expecting basic competency become toxic?
I've been around since 2.0 and all i can say is this: the casual Final Fantasy XIV players are the biggest snowflakes in video game history, they flake away at the smallest bit of challenge and blame the game systems for their own failures.
Re the healer video, I wonder how much OP pf's things. Because if they only raid in an HC static that might give them a skewed version of the game.
It's weird to see this because I'm of the opinion that healing is the hardest job in XIV.
Haven't played Dawntrail, but some of my most enjoyment came from being a white mage (the one typically labelled the most boring). Really just comes down to the person.
I think it would be cool if every healer had a spell that could only be used on other healers. Either to buff them or share effects of other spells. Kardion comes to mind, and we could have a healer spell that enhances kardion if applied to Sage. It could work similar to dance partner from Dancer
I hate this video. Cleric stance dancing was horrible and nobody liked it. Rinion is idolizing content that he never participated in. Alot of his complaints come from optimized healer play, he even admitted it was fun once he hit a group that was on the more mid side of things. Many groups are around this skill level. Doing alliance this week we had a screw up that wiped the whole raid and 2 tanks released, and healers picked up the pieces for the last 20 percent of the boss fight and it was chaos.
At optimized play levels all classes are optimized to maintain their rotations. Healers similarly optimize healing ogcds to maximize dps but unlike other classes can save shit falling apart. Thats what makes healers fun. Anytime theyd trier to introduce content that legitimately stresses uealers, healers dont play because that's not fun for most of them.
While I do have a couple of issues with Rinon's video, (mostly in the generalist statements surrounding the difficulty of content), I do very much agree that content should be designed in such a way where our healing is essential to deal with more (for a lack of better terms) crafted crisis situations.
The moments where I'm having the most fun as a healer is when everything is going horribly wrong and I have to do on the fly prioritization in regards to making sure the fight keeps going. often waiting for the right time to res someone, if any of them need to be a hard cast, when to use my biggest heals; but generally those situations usually only happen when doing casual content with players who aren't completely coordinated, and so chaos is what brings crisis. What I want are more hardline cases of "you need to stop DPSing or else everyone will die", and I want those situations the be a true flex of understanding the healing kit we're given. I want the fight to feel like a puzzle we solve instead of just being solely about optimization.
There have been a few flickers of that in DT's content, but it still feels like SE is holding back, and I would like for them to just go ahead and really make it so we have to pull back on doing DPS and instead do what it is we're supposed to be doing. Which is… you know, heal.
A lot of the healer apathy comes from players who healed in HW/SB and played those iterations of healers, and have since watched SE strip engagement away from healer gameplay with every expac since. It makes it hard to judge current healing on it's own merits, because those of us who fell in love with what healing was like in the game's earlier years have to contend with the fact that SE has simply removed a lot of the gameplay that we enjoyed in the first place, so the resentment of that loss is always there under the surface.
on device resting:
Your PC should be reset at least once a week but ideal is turn it off daily. Your fridge should run for about 20 minutes every 4-6 hours, your AC should run almost non-stop but not struggle to reach temperature (however that's supposed to work)
Healers are still whining? Play a different job because old timers pining for stormblood days need to go play something else. Its over. The game isn't that game anymore. Move on already.
For mobile, I wish they had, instead of recreating ARR, recreated the story of 1.0 – would be new to me so I'd be very likely to grab it to go through it
EDIT: Just got to where Kyle talks about exactly this, and he makes some good points
"How will they make profit off of the mobile version?"
I'm guessing they'll offer the base game for free, then charge every bit of patch content that they will release as (mini)DLC.
On healers: I've never done savage or ultimate, and I don't enjoy extremes for my own reasons (not skill related). I do PuG a lot, so I've been 'tempered in the flames of PuGs' and learned to heal there. For me, healing has, indeed, only become interesting once people mess up. Perfect runs are exceptionally boring from an experienced healer's perspective. Keyword being 'experienced'.
back in arr, scholar had far more damage options in addition to not having infinite mana. They had bio1/bio2/miasma(with a 40% heavy)/shadowflare(with an attack speed slow)/miasma 2/aero all as dots. The debuffs were also a feature, ruin 2 came with a blind effect and selene could use silence. Eye for an eye would lower enemies damage by 10% and could have its duration refreshed by hitting a player with the buff, and finally supervirus which lowered an enemies int/mind by 15% making magic attacks weaker.
So much of your support and downtime options were either entirely removed or given to dps players.
Funny enough, there are a lot of similarities for tanks on the "not engaging enough". As in "the off-tank has often nothing to do besides doing his rota". Dont fully agree on "healers dont have enough to do". I agree that i would like my tools to be used more in extremes. Often enough i end up using big cd skills not even once because they are not needed. But with average groups in savage (and sometimes even in extremes), you have more than enough to do.
It's interesting how Sage answers some of his concerns while being a poster child for the other problems.
great mobility and MP recovery but having the ability to heal by attacking (even an ability to do it party wide) a skill to deal with the ak morn and repeat damage attacks.
Honestly, I haven't played any healer but SGE since Dawntrail released.
It says that SE is only licensing and supervising the FFXIV IP to the developers of the mobile app, meaning the cost to make and maintain it will most likely be shouldered by the studio that's making it ( Ala Destiny 2 and Destiny: Rising) my guess is that SE and the dev studio will split the profits and SE will not have to expend any effort on the actual game itself aside from quality control and consultation.
Isnt creating your own static to match your skill level already doing what ELO ranking does? Id rather it be automated than have to do the recruiting or joining an FC with wildly different skill levels
My general problem with Rinon is he never really actually offers any real solutions to what he perceives is an issue. He always talks about the "good ol' days" but never really talks about how we could make healers more engaging. In fact, in his own video, he contradicts himself numerous amounts of times. He says things like we have to change the job itself but then moments later talks about how to make it more engaging by making fights do more raid wide damage to force you into healing. That isn't "changing the job", that is "changing the fight". SE has tried many different things to force healers into doing more things such as putting bleeds on a lot of raid wides and it pushed many players to not play healers anymore.
The reality of the situation is, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't".
If he really wants to push for effective change, he should have done what Xeno did. Talk about the kit, what to do to make it better. Talk about why certain things are a problem. Offer solutions. Xeno got a lot the changes that he wanted or at least moved in the direction he wanted. Why can't Rinon? Simply put, Rinon does nothing but complain and talk about the good ol days and offers nothing substantive.
I think it is a hard act to balance. At this day an age, people have less and less time to commit into longer more complicated games, but also players heading to the more complicated content are often better and better as gamers. World of Warcraft has lot of the same issues with m+ and mythic raiding. So the question becomes to whom the game is designed and balanced for? If it requires more effort a section of the player base will not have skill/time/resources to enjoy/develop in it – and if it is more approachable it will always feel boring or unimportant to some.
I main healer in both. I like raid leading and m+ pushing in wow and I like the chiller, more casual experience in FF (since I don't really have time to play savage or ultimate's atm). I get that the whole idea of a "green dps" healing the raid in off gcd's becomes pretty boring eventually, especially when you learn the patterns. But the stance dancing and busywork does not sound like something that the story driven audience would appreciate anymore.
Healers need something fun and rewarding added to their role that isn't directly related to keeping the rest of the party alive. If they make fight mechanics so busy or harsh that healers have their hands full keeping people alive when things aren't going badly wrong, you create two whole new problems — firstly, if dealing with things going well most of the time is already challenging, then recovering from when things do go wrong will be too hard for most. And secondly, nobody likes being entirely at the mercy of someone else's performance – if the healer role is made so essential in keeping the party up that the tank and dps even playing at their best are going to be unable to clear if the healer alone is bad, then hello hostage situation, hello toxicity.
it was frustrating to see the more involved arguments get interrupted in the middle to react to chat. i think it would help a lot if you just went back ~10 seconds when you unpause.
to be clear- no problem with pausing to get audience opinions, it just gets hard to hold together some of rinon's arguments coherently when there's a big pause and tangent.
I'll never understand the mentality some healers have that they can't do a good job if the rest of their party is. It's like, I'm sorry you're being rewarded for the collective skill of your party. Because let's look at it from the other end of the spectrum. When a healer is doing a bad job while the rest of the party is doing a bad job, play just feels absolutely miserable. A good healer also can't turn this scenario into a success, especially if something like enrage is involved.
I mained RDM in XI and I wanted desperately for the job to be anything but the healer the rest of the player base zealously tried to shoehorn it into because of Refresh and Convert. Paired with the brokenness of the Utsusemi ability, either from NIN mains or on subjobs, the game really just allowed things that shouldn't have been happening happen throughout the lifespan of the game. In this vein, being a RDM healer with a bad party was a miserable experience. When it turned out Refresh and Convert weren't enough to keep the party going, you'd be the one they'd turn on instead of considering their shadow management was bad, that they were pulling too fast, or maybe just overhunting in general. The RDM experience tempered my opinions on healer classes a lot, and even playing WHM in the same game, I found the latter exponentially easier and could never understand why people preferred RDM more. This gap only widened with the lift of the 75 cap and into ilvl tiers.
Regardless, yeah, healers are there to heal. I'm sorry some find that offensive, but the answer isn't to just give healers more nukes if you find yourself in that niche situation where the group has their shit together. Because the moment that expectation starts shifting back to the lesser skilled players, you create a cascade of gatekeeping that WILL scare off lesser skilled or confident healers because suddenly their job isn't just healing anymore and not meeting those expectations makes them the bad healer when all they wanted to do was heal.
Does this mean there aren't other problems with tanks or select design encounters? No, but veteran MMOers also tend to lose sight of the fact that not everyone else is a vet and that turning casual content into savage tier is not The Way(tm). My persistent hot take will forever remain that content the majority can't experience is content not worth developing. Experiencing is also more than just hitting queue and waiting. I'm talking consistent, stress free clearing that doesn't feel like a chore because we can't pretend MMOs don't just bloat content with grinds, either. I'll also forever assert Bozja/Eureka are bad "midcore" content, too, in large part due to the weird culture thst's sprung up as a direct result of their design. But that's another topic.
I mained SCH since ARR and all the changes have left a sour taste in my mouth that I quit the game, altogether.