Healing is boring if the team is good and no one takes damage. I don't see how adding more DPS would hurt heal mechanically however I think META will take over and then people will only want the top healer DPS then they will cry about healer dps balance. Now imagine all the healers now have to hear about not doing enough DPS while healing and how they are dpsing too much and not enough healing.
Running roulettes i disagree altho I'm not a healer main. When my tank pulls the entire zone I am always busy. I try to throw in dps and heals. When my tank can't hold aggro is can get nuts and I'm doing so much so no body dies. Idk what great players you play with, but my teams always need heals and stuff goes wrong often and I must save the day
I've mained healer for multiple tiers now. This tier is only fun to heal if your group is full of random PF players, with no real cohesion. When I play with my static, I'm so bored. This is the only tier that, I've started playing DPS on the side, and I'll be honest. I've been loving DPS, not sure if I'm gonna be healing next tier unless there's some serious changes.
Healing at "high end" is just pressing one DPS button, and using 1 of your 20 oGCD heals any time people take dmg.
I describe healing in FF14 like balance in Elden Ring, it's either laughably easy to the point of being boring or oppressively hard, it's kinda rare for it to hit the balance right now because when things are going right, you spam 1 ability most of the fight and don't even use most of your kit, and when things go wrong, most of the time, all the responsibility and stress is put on you to hard carry the entire team even if they refuse to mitigate or greed like crazy, etc. That said, when it does hit that middle ground, it is really fun, I love the bleeds and stuff they added that actually make you heal a lot in general but it's a very hard balance to hit and no one likes to feel anxious that stuff is gonna go wrong and you'll get blamed whether it's truly your fault or not. Honestly, they need to add some healer achievement mounts like they did for tanks IMO.
Easy solution put dmg to all ogcds make them like assize and pneuma problem solved…een though a more solid gcd rotation would be more interesting and intetactive.
Actually the two camps are: Those who realize this is just a single tier and have been falling asleep for the previous 4 and those who don't. Healers and tanks are pretty OP in this game. But that is when used correctly and also when DPS mitigation is used correctly.
I tell you, everyone who wants healing to go back to the HW and SB days has not played back then or has forgotten what it was like. What they argue is wanting to press 2-3 buttons more to play their job optimally. There was not more depth, it was just busy work.
I find that its the opposite, healers at lower levels feel fine with the current situation while raid healers find it boring but I could be wrong.
Either way, I think the system is fine and yeah, there could be some changes to make healing more engaging but nothing is perfect, they cant satisfy everyone and they always make changes so just give it some time and things will change.
honestly find healing more fun than dps because their abilities aren't just press on cooldown/save for burst windows
you have to find the stuff that's best for each situation to keep everyone alive while maximizing your own damage. White mage can put afflatus misery in raid buffs for extra damage, scholar can spend aetherflow on energy drain, astrologian has the cards. Sage kind of an odd one out there, it has phlegma but its not tied into anything else and isn't particularly difficult to use and put in raid buffs.
IMO having to monitor incoming damage while also having that stuff going on just makes it more engaging than DPS jobs where you just do your rotation and basically ignore everything else. High level optimizations can feel clunky and unnecessary whereas optimizing healer dps feels more natural. I feel similar with tanking, you don't just press mitigations on cooldown, so I have more agency in how I use my kit.
The issue is healers feel the most fun when in high end content, when in normal content, you're never really stressed all that much cuz it has to be balanced around people that don't play high end content. So I think there just needs to be something more going on, more ways healing and offensive abilities get tied together so that even if you might not need a certain healing ability, maybe its worth using for some other reason. The tricky part would be avoiding new abilities being something you just press on cooldown for damage. That imo is a big problem with abilities like white mage's assize. You never hold it for healing, you only use it for damage, which makes it boring. Sage's pneuma is a lot more better designed in this way, its a big heal that does damage also, but its dps neutral, so you don't use it for damage.
Roulete are not issue, people who raiding are already max ther jobs. Problem is punishing and dificulty of healing – if dps/tank dont use ther mitigation healers have to sweat in healing, if dps are greedy and die, healer are punished, 2500 mana and 8 seconds cast. in other hands fight are design whre healers HAVE to dps – if your healer do nothing you can have trouble to make even first fight, and pressing "glare" for entire 10 minutes its not fun. My solution its make resurection as job skill – free, instand and with cd 60 second. skills for dps make more interesting – pvp show us its is possible – like 30 sec dash dealing great dps and folow with aoe heal. or make whm/scholar casters, with longer cast like blms but greater dps, and sage/astrologian make ther dps skills with no casts – so ther heavy rotation cards will be free like dancer. tltr: less punish for stupid party and more reward for playing well.
This is one of my favorite conversations in the game xD Because I'm like NO DPSING I LOVE HEALING, but I also find the normal raids and roulettes SO boring. And what youre saying is exactly what I was thinking — in a savage raid as hard as the current tier, it might be a little TOO busy to have to do a dps rotation on top of healing the group. I'd rather the game move forward with more extremes and savages like what we're seeing in 6.2. Also I would argue that tanks and dps ALWAYS had to mitigate in Savage — this is not a new thing. Any dps worth their salt knows what feint and addle are. Is there more mitigation required, though? Yes. Because there is more outgoing damage.
Chair said he felt that we cant change the endgame fights to require more healing because then that would make it too different (and possibly too difficult for new players) in comparison to the earlier game, but i personally disagree. Why CANT we add a bit more healing requirement to normal mode stuff? Why cant we make healers heal more? It's quite NORMAL for games (mmos especially) to be entirely different at endgame. To be harder even. Plus, I dont think they need to make healing hard just more engaging with more stuff to actually heal…like, make normals actually require a healer. It shouldnt be possible to run a dungeon without a healer yet it very much is.. people were doing DE with warrior and 3 dps literally like a week or less after EW dropped. Now that's sad!
I think the idea that increasing DPS rotations on healers would be dangerous given the healing requirements of the current savage tier is misleading. Here are some current numbers of casts for savage that I came across:
Granted we're a few weeks into savage, so gear is definitely a factor, but I wasn't looking highest ranking teams or anything. I just picked randomly from lower ranked cleared teams. Most healing comes from OGCD usage, and while it's true that prog especially will tell a different story. A lot of healers just want their GCD rotation to have some greater aspect of engagement regardless of whether or not healing is needed, and the healers can approach this differently, not unlike the tanks. You can have something more simple like WAR for AST perhaps who has a lot of buff weaving to manage, but something more complex like GNB for SGE who is meant to be a more challenging, hyper offensive healer.
I think your argument about leveling being purposefully boring and how SE is pushing people to buy boost is misguided, Yoshida in part due to him pulling Square from going belly up (due to FFXIV and flop of 13) has a lot more pull in his own game. The funny thing is Square has to ask Yoshida if they are allowed to do X because of how much good will that man has generated back for the company [possibly why SE quietly dumped their NFT scheme due to Yoshida mocking NFTs a while ago]. When it came to place the cash shop Yoshida pretty much put SE over the barrel that he gets final say on majority of things that go into the cash shop, even though SE may run it. There's a joke that the person in charge of the shop is the very definition of a certain NPC that loves relics. Boosting in the community has been at large the biggest contention for the game. A lot of people wouldnt mind if they removed it since sales for boosts are minimal to the fantasia addiction some players have. From the last sales reports Fantasias (Race change) is by far the biggest monetary sales generator for the cash shop by the tune of 5 to 1 in comparison to boosting. So even if the players get what they want by removal of boosts, SE is not losing money at all.
Story skips and level boosts only became a thing in 3.0, and they were done primarily for the raiding community. From 2.0 through 3.45 there was no cross-datacenter Party finder. You had to raid within your server's population. There were only a handful of raid-centric servers in the game, so most better skilled players would have 1 character on the server with their friends and another character that was their 'raid' character on a different server. Alexander was a very over-tuned raid at the initial start and players were shifting servers to join their new groups, often either choosing to lose everything on a server transfer (couldnt move the house you bought or all that gil) or you made an alt. Hence the boosts were for alts only and for raiders. Come 3.5 and cross-datacenter system…the need for boosts dropped and has been seen more as a net negative for the community at large due to the game with the addition of new system convinces (cross-datacenter travel, cross server travel, party finder).
The big argument is that dev team has not spruced up class leveling for nearly two expansions. With some classes actually losing 5-10 skills and stat squish that happen between Stormsblood and Shadowbringers. So previously these classes had specific skills coming in at 15,20,25 ect….but now you gain 1 skill at 15…and the next skill is 25 because that 20 skill was removed from the game as a whole, healers its just more profound because of how simplified their kits have become. This has made low leveling quite…boring as buttons you used to have two expansions ago no longer exist and overall only the dungeons have gotten revamped. The overall community solution has been, allow players to go in with their kits and sync them down accordingly to the difficulty of that dungeon.
No Clip Documentary would be a good starting point. The Rise and Fall of FFXIV another good one. Larryzur's ARR history…the game has fundamentally changed over the years.
Honestly, I don't like DPSing. If I liked DPSing, I'd play a DPSer/DPS Job.
I do it for the sake of the party, but I'd be 100% content if I only had one damage spell. The Reddit/Official Forum people all want damage spells because…they seem to like dealing damage. There are several sub-camps – some like being hybrid healer/damage dealers, some don't actually like healing but they want the green ques/slots, some want to exclude "bads" from being able to clear "their" content, some just think that the encounter design is set and cannot be changed (despite it being changed through FFXIV's various expansions several times over)
The part that gets me is they seem not to realize how many healers DON'T want or like more involved DPS rotations.
One solution I've seen some people propose, even Chair, is to leave one healer like WHM like it is and change the others to have various DPS rotations. That's honestly probably the best solution – have one barrier and one pure healer be "simple" and one of each be "complex", and let players gravitate to the ones they like best. Have them balanced around doing the same general healing and damage and the people that want to play the complex one to not be bored (and aren't using that as code for something else) can be happy while people who like healing today can be happy.
The people wanting damage rotations on healers seem adamantly against that…but I personally feel is because they know, deep down, that more people would pick the simple ones and they would be exposed as being in the minority, and they don't want that. But it's probably the best solution for the game/players.
SUBSCRIBE SO I'M MOTIVATED TO MAKE MORE CONTENT
The Misshapen Chair video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbWubxOTUWU&ab_channel=MisshapenChair
Healing is boring if the team is good and no one takes damage. I don't see how adding more DPS would hurt heal mechanically however I think META will take over and then people will only want the top healer DPS then they will cry about healer dps balance. Now imagine all the healers now have to hear about not doing enough DPS while healing and how they are dpsing too much and not enough healing.
Did you see zepla covered the same post you covered a few days ago regarding story etc lol?
Running roulettes i disagree altho I'm not a healer main. When my tank pulls the entire zone I am always busy. I try to throw in dps and heals. When my tank can't hold aggro is can get nuts and I'm doing so much so no body dies. Idk what great players you play with, but my teams always need heals and stuff goes wrong often and I must save the day
I've mained healer for multiple tiers now. This tier is only fun to heal if your group is full of random PF players, with no real cohesion. When I play with my static, I'm so bored. This is the only tier that, I've started playing DPS on the side, and I'll be honest. I've been loving DPS, not sure if I'm gonna be healing next tier unless there's some serious changes.
Healing at "high end" is just pressing one DPS button, and using 1 of your 20 oGCD heals any time people take dmg.
I describe healing in FF14 like balance in Elden Ring, it's either laughably easy to the point of being boring or oppressively hard, it's kinda rare for it to hit the balance right now because when things are going right, you spam 1 ability most of the fight and don't even use most of your kit, and when things go wrong, most of the time, all the responsibility and stress is put on you to hard carry the entire team even if they refuse to mitigate or greed like crazy, etc. That said, when it does hit that middle ground, it is really fun, I love the bleeds and stuff they added that actually make you heal a lot in general but it's a very hard balance to hit and no one likes to feel anxious that stuff is gonna go wrong and you'll get blamed whether it's truly your fault or not.
Honestly, they need to add some healer achievement mounts like they did for tanks IMO.
Easy solution put dmg to all ogcds make them like assize and pneuma problem solved…een though a more solid gcd rotation would be more interesting and intetactive.
Actually the two camps are: Those who realize this is just a single tier and have been falling asleep for the previous 4 and those who don't. Healers and tanks are pretty OP in this game. But that is when used correctly and also when DPS mitigation is used correctly.
For roulette there's a Gil reward for class in need. As someone who doesn't really craft, it's my source of Gil for food and pots.
I tell you, everyone who wants healing to go back to the HW and SB days has not played back then or has forgotten what it was like. What they argue is wanting to press 2-3 buttons more to play their job optimally. There was not more depth, it was just busy work.
I find that its the opposite, healers at lower levels feel fine with the current situation while raid healers find it boring but I could be wrong.
Either way, I think the system is fine and yeah, there could be some changes to make healing more engaging but nothing is perfect, they cant satisfy everyone and they always make changes so just give it some time and things will change.
honestly find healing more fun than dps because their abilities aren't just press on cooldown/save for burst windows
you have to find the stuff that's best for each situation to keep everyone alive while maximizing your own damage. White mage can put afflatus misery in raid buffs for extra damage, scholar can spend aetherflow on energy drain, astrologian has the cards. Sage kind of an odd one out there, it has phlegma but its not tied into anything else and isn't particularly difficult to use and put in raid buffs.
IMO having to monitor incoming damage while also having that stuff going on just makes it more engaging than DPS jobs where you just do your rotation and basically ignore everything else. High level optimizations can feel clunky and unnecessary whereas optimizing healer dps feels more natural. I feel similar with tanking, you don't just press mitigations on cooldown, so I have more agency in how I use my kit.
The issue is healers feel the most fun when in high end content, when in normal content, you're never really stressed all that much cuz it has to be balanced around people that don't play high end content. So I think there just needs to be something more going on, more ways healing and offensive abilities get tied together so that even if you might not need a certain healing ability, maybe its worth using for some other reason. The tricky part would be avoiding new abilities being something you just press on cooldown for damage. That imo is a big problem with abilities like white mage's assize. You never hold it for healing, you only use it for damage, which makes it boring. Sage's pneuma is a lot more better designed in this way, its a big heal that does damage also, but its dps neutral, so you don't use it for damage.
Roulete are not issue, people who raiding are already max ther jobs. Problem is punishing and dificulty of healing – if dps/tank dont use ther mitigation healers have to sweat in healing, if dps are greedy and die, healer are punished, 2500 mana and 8 seconds cast. in other hands fight are design whre healers HAVE to dps – if your healer do nothing you can have trouble to make even first fight, and pressing "glare" for entire 10 minutes its not fun. My solution its make resurection as job skill – free, instand and with cd 60 second. skills for dps make more interesting – pvp show us its is possible – like 30 sec dash dealing great dps and folow with aoe heal. or make whm/scholar casters, with longer cast like blms but greater dps, and sage/astrologian make ther dps skills with no casts – so ther heavy rotation cards will be free like dancer. tltr: less punish for stupid party and more reward for playing well.
This is one of my favorite conversations in the game xD Because I'm like NO DPSING I LOVE HEALING, but I also find the normal raids and roulettes SO boring. And what youre saying is exactly what I was thinking — in a savage raid as hard as the current tier, it might be a little TOO busy to have to do a dps rotation on top of healing the group. I'd rather the game move forward with more extremes and savages like what we're seeing in 6.2. Also I would argue that tanks and dps ALWAYS had to mitigate in Savage — this is not a new thing. Any dps worth their salt knows what feint and addle are. Is there more mitigation required, though? Yes. Because there is more outgoing damage.
Chair said he felt that we cant change the endgame fights to require more healing because then that would make it too different (and possibly too difficult for new players) in comparison to the earlier game, but i personally disagree. Why CANT we add a bit more healing requirement to normal mode stuff? Why cant we make healers heal more? It's quite NORMAL for games (mmos especially) to be entirely different at endgame. To be harder even. Plus, I dont think they need to make healing hard just more engaging with more stuff to actually heal…like, make normals actually require a healer. It shouldnt be possible to run a dungeon without a healer yet it very much is.. people were doing DE with warrior and 3 dps literally like a week or less after EW dropped. Now that's sad!
I think the idea that increasing DPS rotations on healers would be dangerous given the healing requirements of the current savage tier is misleading. Here are some current numbers of casts for savage that I came across:
P5S SGE:
– Dosis II: 138 casts
– Eukrasian Dosis III: 14 casts
– Phlemga III: 10 casts
– Eukrasian Diagnosis: 2 casts
– Eukrasian Prognosis: 1 cast
– Diagnosis & Prognosis: 0 casts
P6S WHM:
– Glare III: 157 casts
– Afflatus Rapture: 20 casts
– Dia: 16 casts
– Afflatus Misery: 7 casts
– Afflatus Solace: 1 cast
– Cure, Cure II, Cure III, Medica, Medica II, Regen: 0 casts
P7S AST:
– Fall Malefic: 209 casts
– Combust: 18 casts
– Aspected Helios: 3 casts
– Macrocosmos: 2 casts
– Benefic, Benefic II, Helios, Aspected Benefic: 0 casts
P8S Second Half SCH:
– Broil IV: 133 casts
– Biolysis: 14 casts
– Succor: 12 casts
– Adloquium & Physick: 0 casts
Granted we're a few weeks into savage, so gear is definitely a factor, but I wasn't looking highest ranking teams or anything. I just picked randomly from lower ranked cleared teams. Most healing comes from OGCD usage, and while it's true that prog especially will tell a different story. A lot of healers just want their GCD rotation to have some greater aspect of engagement regardless of whether or not healing is needed, and the healers can approach this differently, not unlike the tanks. You can have something more simple like WAR for AST perhaps who has a lot of buff weaving to manage, but something more complex like GNB for SGE who is meant to be a more challenging, hyper offensive healer.
I think your argument about leveling being purposefully boring and how SE is pushing people to buy boost is misguided, Yoshida in part due to him pulling Square from going belly up (due to FFXIV and flop of 13) has a lot more pull in his own game. The funny thing is Square has to ask Yoshida if they are allowed to do X because of how much good will that man has generated back for the company [possibly why SE quietly dumped their NFT scheme due to Yoshida mocking NFTs a while ago]. When it came to place the cash shop Yoshida pretty much put SE over the barrel that he gets final say on majority of things that go into the cash shop, even though SE may run it. There's a joke that the person in charge of the shop is the very definition of a certain NPC that loves relics. Boosting in the community has been at large the biggest contention for the game. A lot of people wouldnt mind if they removed it since sales for boosts are minimal to the fantasia addiction some players have. From the last sales reports Fantasias (Race change) is by far the biggest monetary sales generator for the cash shop by the tune of 5 to 1 in comparison to boosting. So even if the players get what they want by removal of boosts, SE is not losing money at all.
Story skips and level boosts only became a thing in 3.0, and they were done primarily for the raiding community. From 2.0 through 3.45 there was no cross-datacenter Party finder. You had to raid within your server's population. There were only a handful of raid-centric servers in the game, so most better skilled players would have 1 character on the server with their friends and another character that was their 'raid' character on a different server. Alexander was a very over-tuned raid at the initial start and players were shifting servers to join their new groups, often either choosing to lose everything on a server transfer (couldnt move the house you bought or all that gil) or you made an alt. Hence the boosts were for alts only and for raiders. Come 3.5 and cross-datacenter system…the need for boosts dropped and has been seen more as a net negative for the community at large due to the game with the addition of new system convinces (cross-datacenter travel, cross server travel, party finder).
The big argument is that dev team has not spruced up class leveling for nearly two expansions. With some classes actually losing 5-10 skills and stat squish that happen between Stormsblood and Shadowbringers. So previously these classes had specific skills coming in at 15,20,25 ect….but now you gain 1 skill at 15…and the next skill is 25 because that 20 skill was removed from the game as a whole, healers its just more profound because of how simplified their kits have become. This has made low leveling quite…boring as buttons you used to have two expansions ago no longer exist and overall only the dungeons have gotten revamped. The overall community solution has been, allow players to go in with their kits and sync them down accordingly to the difficulty of that dungeon.
No Clip Documentary would be a good starting point. The Rise and Fall of FFXIV another good one. Larryzur's ARR history…the game has fundamentally changed over the years.
I just want my DoTs back on Scholar and my old HW buff cards back on Astrologian. :<
Honestly, I don't like DPSing. If I liked DPSing, I'd play a DPSer/DPS Job.
I do it for the sake of the party, but I'd be 100% content if I only had one damage spell. The Reddit/Official Forum people all want damage spells because…they seem to like dealing damage. There are several sub-camps – some like being hybrid healer/damage dealers, some don't actually like healing but they want the green ques/slots, some want to exclude "bads" from being able to clear "their" content, some just think that the encounter design is set and cannot be changed (despite it being changed through FFXIV's various expansions several times over)
The part that gets me is they seem not to realize how many healers DON'T want or like more involved DPS rotations.
One solution I've seen some people propose, even Chair, is to leave one healer like WHM like it is and change the others to have various DPS rotations. That's honestly probably the best solution – have one barrier and one pure healer be "simple" and one of each be "complex", and let players gravitate to the ones they like best. Have them balanced around doing the same general healing and damage and the people that want to play the complex one to not be bored (and aren't using that as code for something else) can be happy while people who like healing today can be happy.
The people wanting damage rotations on healers seem adamantly against that…but I personally feel is because they know, deep down, that more people would pick the simple ones and they would be exposed as being in the minority, and they don't want that. But it's probably the best solution for the game/players.