Ranged DPS Tax is being hotly debated so I figured why not round up a bunch of my friends who raid and talk about it! To say the least we cover a TON of different topics and bring up a lot of really critical points.
So sit back, get some popcorn and enjoy!
Official Article Link: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/6d95409248d3ab3b5dbc0c8a04340b373870140b
Developer Reason of Job Balance Changes (BOTTOM OF PAGE!):
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/battle/
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Timestamps:
0:00 Ranged DPS Discussion Round Table Discussion
0:34 Ranged DPS Tax Significance and It’s Impact
9:00 Why not just bring Melee?
17:00 The despair of MCH
18:30 Utility Tax is widely accepted
19:00 Should BLM do more damage? Why are CASTERS so low?
22:00 Healers in raids
24:00 Should Machinist be damage or Utility
32:00 Work half as hard and do more
34:30 Why is recruiting other DPS roles harder than melee
35:00 Why are other people bothered if MCH is buffed?
36:00 This impacts ALL forms of content such as extreme
40:00 Why this matters and who are impacted
42:00 Ultimates and DSR and Melee Downtime
source
This topic is far too big for one dude to handle, so I invited a bunch of my friends to discuss this! Enjoy!
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"Oh god, did somebody message me?!"
"…Oh"
I personally think it simply comes down this, one job has to be the lowest dps. No matter what job is the lowest someone is going to complain, but out of all the jobs I think mch is the most reasonable. It doesn’t offer any utility for a Physical ranged which probably hurts mch more than it should.
melee is easy af, does NOT deserve the dmg gap if they are gonna have bosses hit box this blind and every mechanic gives a melee uptime spot
You have to remember that "Week one, top 1% of the playerbase" gameplay is not what the game is balanced around, and that this is one of the most casual and welcoming MMORPG for players of all walks of life.
Making the game easier for melee was a MUST because there used to be times in which at the casual/semi level, melee players just had a much tougher time surviving and doing damage than ranged players did and suffered harshly against new mechanics.
Now of course, i am not advocating for allowing this gap to continue, and classes like MCH should definitely be buffed to bring them in line with everyone else, but the old days can absolutely not be allowed to come back either.
god the Facebook pings just trick me into checking if i have Facebook open haha
I personally think ranged tax SHOULD exist, it just shouldnt be NEARLY as bad as it is right now. this is coming from a reaper/DRK main. The only other thing I will say is we need to stop using rDPS as our examples. if we are looking at individual performance as we are, we should be using aDPS, it doesnt change anything mind you, its just a more accurate representation of how the classes actually are (With the exception of buffers of course, like DNC)
aia msin MCH and DRK and it is so darn annoying to never be able to do crud on a job I have enjoyed sense Heavensward. I loved the crud out of both those jobs, they still remain an all time fav and I enjoy the play style. I do not want to be forced to play a job I don't enjoy and have no plans on leveling just to get into runs.
A lot of the narrative I've heard recently for the small amount of mch parses is there's less people interested in the job (like from a class fantasy/style perspective), which is just hilarious to me, it's one of the most liked jobs in the game (it's got a damn flame thrower and chain saw lmao)
32:00 Sterb pls, you can't just say this painful truth
Thanks for this video. It was good to hear from experienced players what the state of the game is. Good work on this one
Unpopular opinion: Red Mage's rez utility is a stupid argument for justifying its low dps. Yes it helps getting used to mechanics but you cannot clear fights where your red mage had to rez a lot. A death or maybe two max will allow first kill on a boss. So the only extra utility they bring practically to a kill party is magic barrier and embolden(which is not different to reaper or dragoon buffs or ninja buffs).
And as Desperius mentioned they have the least mobility out of all casters. If you have to move for more than 2.5 seconds gcd it is likely that you are losing dps already. I literally had an easier time dpsing in p1s or p2s as a BLM compared to RDM by far.
Now compare its difficulty to a melee dps in the latest savage tiers. Tell me what the hell is the thing that justifies them dealing the most damage. Even BLM which is considered the hardest job by far is under all of them when it should have been the top dps by a significant margin in my opinion.
Worst part is that YoshiP appears to be thinking that it is okay that casters deal less dps than melee…
Really enjoy the format, but if you decide to do more in the future it'd be a big help to have a label onscreen with who's talking and maybe what perspective they're coming from (melee main, tank main, healer main, etc.).
Also as a melee main agreed melee has gotten so much easier, it absolutely doesn't deserve to do so much more damage than the other roles. Uptime is basically free now and positionals barely matter. I enjoyed having to learn how to maximise my uptime in verse and in promise – aspho it was pretty free if you had halfway decent strats. It sucks to have some of the mechanical difficulty sucked out of the role. There are A-rank hunts that make me work harder for uptime than eric or carbuncle do.
I think the two problems point out to a very big issue. 1) pretty much all parties are going double melee instead of one melee and one flex 2) pretty much all parties are gear funneling to melee.
That is no offensed, messed up in terms of balance already, nevermind some classes getting gated.
If you're serious about big damage it honestly means you should only play melee and the only reason to look at non-melee classes is the 5%. I'm only here so my party doesn't get fined feels bad.
also, please for the love of god turn off your notifications when recording, it's genuinely one of my peeves.
You all nailed the points. I'm so glad to see that the same sentiment is shared more widely.
This is why I don't raid. It's so full of raiders.
Thank you so much for talking about this subject
The hyperbole around is this starting to become outright strange. It seems like whenever there is any kind of damage disparity in jobs we see content creators act like the sky is falling. MCH and range jobs are in hell right now, a couple of months ago it was DRK, before that it was MNK, before that yadda yadda yadda.
I just can’t get passionate about these things when we all know disparities will be addressed in some upcoming patch, and everyone will just pivot to a new overblown balancing disaster.
I've been a bard main for the past year, and this is the first tier that I've really been seriously progging savage. and I've been extremely frustrated that dancer brings more healing utility, more damage utility, AND more personal damage. I lost spots in at least one static for sure (and possibly multiple) that I applied for because a dancer main applied for the same spot after I did. I don't mind there being a utility tax, like you said, but I do mind that the tax is so high right now. I parsed a 90 on p5s- and yet my dps was still about 300 less overall than the summoner in my static who parsed a 48. Summoner! The ranged class pretending to be a caster! I was 1.2k below our ninja, who parsed a 53 in that run. it feels like I'm punished far more than I should be for playing ranged even though at this point, melees have almost as little downtime as I do as a ranged. I love bard. I love managing my songs and my shield and slapping minne on the tank and being able to esuna people on my own. But I also want to be able to play my class without feeling like I'm griefing my team for not playing dancer.
obviously, being newer to savage, I don't know as much as people who've been doing this for longer, so i could be complaining about some things that arent worth complaining about. but even being new, it still doesn't feel right.
Sage is the new mch
100% want either more utility or a solid 500dps bump on my machinist friends. I'm lucky to know some REALLY good machinist mains (have one in my static) and while I've never felt the need to exclude the job because they play at such a high level… its sad to see them get their numbers at the end and not feel great for the work they had to put in to get them.
Its definitely way past time to get rid of the ranged tax in general, but also to just stop looking at role utility. I don't feel like any caster is penalized for addle, or any melee is penalized for feint. Sure the big beefy mit on phys ranged is MUCH better, but it doesn't make sense for machinist to take a hit for it when they ALL have access to it and machinists bring literally nothing special of their own outside of damage and sex appeal.
Anywho… good vid, enjoyed the discussion, was sad to see casual shitting on melee but hey, can't win them all =p putting the good vibes out into the universe for a machinist buff so all the hard work my static's machinist puts into being good is reflected in the game.
Why on earth are you using dps graphs to show comparisons with all percentiles? You should be looking at 95 percentile +
IMO, Ranged should be balanced to do the damage of melee who don't do positionals (as in one that hits the boss from the front). It makes them slightly lower, but not enough to make a huge difference and is more than enough "ranged tax" since a good melee will still outperform due to having to "dance". Otherwise, all dps should be within 1-2% of each other; just via different means (Adps is higher for BLM/MCH/SAM than every other job, regardless of role, but balance out in Rdps to within 1-2% when buffs are included). This is for average damage and not accounting for job "complexity" (which should probably count for the 1-2%)
They're just completely dropping the ball on the games combat design.
Jobs should be played based on what you enjoy. That was the entire point.
I'm not saying that every Job should do the same amount of DPS, but it should be pretty close.
I don't feel "more skilled" because I'm doing positionals, they're just annoying anyway. Literally remove them, and delete ranged tax, and its a done deal.
the whole arguments from other ppl reminds me of current day Femenism, all thinking there gender is worse off because of gender spesific thing.. whilst both sides just have shit do deal with and because we can't experience (or can't easily experience without mutalating yourself) its hard to recognize the balance.
so its nice hearing opinions of ppl who can play multiple jobs in high end raiding.
Uh, which one matters more? RDPS, ADPS, NDPS? RDPS seems to include the buff people get and it's added to your contribution?
If memory serves me right, in stormblood BLM was the top DPS. I used to consistently run top DPS in our static on SMN, and I know BLM was higher. Just looking at the tier list and knowing what I see in my static now, it makes me wonder if it could lead to what we used to see in heavensward where a group wouldn't take anything but 4 melee. Even with the loss of the 2% buff, to have the 4 melee might outdo it.
Let people play what they want. There shouldn't be a gap. The only things that should matter is utility tax and uptime. If melee and ranged have the same uptime because the fights are designed around 2 melees, then there shouldn't be a gap in the first place. Allow people to be a second mage or second physical ranged without forcing the other 7 players to compensate for the 900 DPS their party just lost.
Would it kill the game if people were allowed to pick whatever job they want without being punished for picking an easier job? Absolutely not.
That doesn't even take into account that difficulty is VERY subjective. While some struggle with maintaining a long, complicated rotation and melee damage uptime, others will struggle with the reactionary playstyle of a Bard which requires constant split-second decisionmaking and a lot of double-weaving.
I use Mantra 🙁
At the end of the day no one is gonna be happy unless all the bars are equal, when they are though, what are you bringing anyone for at the end of the day other than aesthetics of a job.
@43:00 this made the most relevant statement that SE devs continuously fail to understand. This is even following their preferred setup where at least two of the composition should be a ranged physical and caster with two physical melee. If the preferred setup of the group is filled with the weaker end of the spectrum the group is less likely to succeed simply because the balance is out of alignment. This means that certain groups will entirely shun specific jobs to max their output rather than struggle with weaker jobs to attain a clear. Before 6.21 showed how big of a difference this made and that even the devs are aware of this simply because they obviously didn't use the weaker compositions in their 'strenuous testing' where their 'ability improved so much they over compensated the HP value of the boss.'
The reason of RDM/SMN being brought more than BLM is the battle rez ability they have for the PROG but not for the KILL. Like dude, we've been progging this fight for 20 runs now. What's the reason to switch to BLM just to practice again?
Square just hates casters and ranged for whatever reason. Even the half-caster PLD got shafted and not in a good way. PLD dealt less damage than other tanks because "they can use their Requiescat phase to go ranged"… But they never do. All fights are designed for melee tanks, so while in theory, PLD can go out of melee range, they never do because they're in their melee tank spot regardless. And a "mobility tax"? Melee are mobile too and worst case scenario they miss one GCD. Meanwhile, when movement is needed, RDM and BLM can be really screwed (SMN not so much, as they have very few hardcasts in their rotation). Not to mention that because buff abilities' ranges and being further away means running more to avoid mechanics, rangers and casters stay close to the boss anyway. So Square, just buff them please
Thank the lord that Yoshi treats americans, poopsockers and wowfugees like second-class citizens
Hearing all of these debates, considering how the classes play and their utilities I've come up with a personal order that the DPS should be. This is assuming 100% uptime, perfect positionals and and not factoring Rdps, just self DPS.
1: Blackmage
2: Samurai
3:Machinist
4-7: Remaining Melee
8-9: Redmage/Summoner
10-11: Bard/Dancer
12-15: Tanks
16-19: Healers
The complexity and difficulty of Blackmage means IMHO it should have the theoretical highest Self DPS above the all the other "Selfish" DPS. Machinist being Phys ranged means it should have the lowest DPS of the "Selfish" jobs but should still have more stand-alone dps then anything with any type of party buff.
But then I don't do hardcore content cause finding a static that only raids on Fridays and Saturdays (Only evenings I can reliably be online) is just impossible, and bad experiences with pugging in general make me deathly afraid of PF, thereby making me a filthy casual. So what do I know.
Welp, previous tier was skipped by me, coz the static died, and i had a difficult time with finding new (i hate progging with pugs, so PF is not an option). This tier i am skipping, coz devs went full bullshit with balancing. Good thing i transcended into omnicrafting and already pentamelded instruments for all crafters.