Whenever there are two or more choices, people are likely to pick the path of least resistance. Are you the kind of player that prefers a quick and easy experience? Or would you rather have options and take your time? With so many different life styles in our world both options are valid for different reasons. Lets talk about that!
#ffxiv #endwalker #6.1
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When it comes to creativity, I remember when guardian deities in the game provided elemental resistances/weaknesses but now they’re nothing more than what god’s name do you like? I also miss back in FFXI where picking a race mattered for certain builds. We all know Lalafells, by lore are the most magically proficient race yet a hyur can hurl spells just as potent. Maybe that is just my old timer mmo self speaking but I miss those days.
There needs to be a fine balance between the two. Not one predicated on the merits by the majority. It’s really hard to have a definitive answer seeing as both creativity and efficiency have their points. As an MMO, it’s good to have it accessible, but personally I like the individual story and content moments. Makes it feel like you’re being an active part of the game with agency consequence. I can appreciate creativity for what is and how it’s shown in the game. We should reward something like that where appropriate.
I think that a system that enforces a tiny bit of communication at the start of a dungeon (more than "hi" and "gg" at both ends) could help bring more room for different play styles. For example, something like the adventurer plates showing up on the loading screen could easily let the party know if they're with more chill or more performance driven players.
I love big aoe pulls
"Or rather the communiuty will not allow you to" that sums it up perfectly.
Yeah I left my old server as a healer cause I was forced to run content I was wanting to wait for friends on…
But yeah, character and gear progression in the game has been the same since 2.0, only real changing factor is relic grind and its great because its all optional stuff. Like there is no need for classic FFXIV servers because the game is almost the same in spirit.
I understand the reason why things went in the current direction and it HAS made the game accessible to many more people.
Buuuut….
I miss the dungeons you had to explore. I miss when the battle themes changed from calm to chaotic when you get into a fight.
Now, there's no real sense of threat from trash enemies if you're able to wall to wall pull them. At this point I'm literally playing for the story and to hangout with friends.
Sure there are savage raids and whatnot but I'm not a raider.
I guess Eureka (I think, did this best), Bozja, Palace of the Dead, and Heaven on High, are the only ways to get that fix. Would be nice to have some open world dungeons to explore around. Or the next version of "Eureka" has a reason to actually explore instead of just doing the high level mob trains.
I did Roulettes like crazy to get all my jobs to 90, and to help a friend do the same. I've seen these dungeons so often, I actually like seing them in a "new light" now. Sure it's kinda sad seing the old, more "offline RPG"-looking dungeons fade away.
And to be honest, I cannot remember the very first time I was in those dungeons anyway. I belive most people see the ARR dungeons during daily grinds. Saving some time is always nice, but of course there is a clear line, when people start acting all gatekeep-y or worse towards other players during a run.
But why not both!? Keep the old dungeons in there… like one out of five tries gives you the old version of the dungeon, but with higher exp/tomestone counts or something like that.
I think the problem lies in that exploration is conflict with the core design of dungeons. In Elden Ring you won't be going to the same dungeon for dailies for 3 three months plus. You will see the same thing over and over. The experience never changes. As a result after having seen a dungeon so many times you no longer want to explore. You already know what's there.
I think they should keep the current design going forward. I think if they want to encourage exploration they need to overhaul another system the game has. If I had to pick one I would say guildhests. They originally were there to teach players mechanics in a low risk way. However, hall of the novice and the duty support system is a better choice almost always.
I think they should update it to be a daily dungeon with differing objectives everytime you enter. Make it a huge deep dungeon floor. Let the party find chests with buffs in them along with rare materials. Make the goal exploration rather than just finishing the objectives. Make the exp reward based on how many items you find. How many NM you manage to spawn or otherwise. Make a 20 min duty where you leave when the timer runs out.
If you want players to explore they need to know the time investment is worth it. Also, let it drop tokens to buy hard to get items in the game. Anima and Zodiac mats. Light for weapons. Old mounts that would otherwise be just a hassle to get. Crystals for Eureka. Whatever, let there be a draw for the content.
There needs to be content for players to jump in easily too but won't get stale fast.
I don't think it's quite fair to say that players chose to discard customization or force optimal stat distribution. Rather, I would say that the way these systems were designed ended up making only certain builds viable in endgame content. Tanks weren't encouraged to invest in Dexterity because parrying was just worse when compared to additional health to take more hits. The devs wanted to give players the means to customize their characters, but didn't consider whether or not their choices would fit into the content they designed.
The same could be said for things like cross-class skills. While it was cool that you were rewarded for playing multiple classes, you were actively punished for not leveling those classes. A Dragoon without Inner Release wasn't a different variety of Dragoon, they were just a worse Dragoon. There wasn't any tradeoff to taking these additional skills or interesting combinations of skills from different classes, it was just a matter of being better or being worse.
Ultimately, if they wanted players to have more freedom in customization, they would have to re-design these systems to make more of the choices actually comparable with one another, which does mean a TON of work which would only scale exponentially as they added more jobs and content. So, while I also would have enjoyed alot more customization in FFXIV, I also understand why they chose to cut some of these systems instead.
Imo most people wanted the changes cause of burnout from running the same old dungeons for over 6 years in leveling roulette.
How replayable is exploration over efficiency? The dungeons are created to be ran over and over, so how many times would you take a more exploratory route in the dungeon until you get bored of it? If the exploration paths weren't dead ends but splitting-and-converging paths, how many times would you take the longer routes before opting for the shortest? (Relatedly, how many times do you want to watch the dungeon intro and boss intro cutscenes until you start skipping them?) The novelty factor of all of these wears down over time, and more and more of the playerbase will gravitate to the faster options because the others have no added value to make up for taking longer.
Yoshi-P's design philosophy is to make XIV a game anyone can jump into, whether for a longer or just a short play session, and still have a good time. And to accommodate for the shorter playing sessions, a lot of friction in the gameplay has to be done away with. For example, if there was a greater variety in job builds, there would of course be a meta dictating the preferred builds, so playing anything drastically differs from that introduces some friction: you either have to change your build towards meta, or find people who don't mind the less unorthodox build. So, some time of your short playing session would be spent in either re-speccing your build or looking for people, neither of which is what you'd really want to do (just run the dungeon).
Of course the above is exaggerated, but any meaningful choice introduces friction when going against the most optimal alternative, which most people will tend to when the novelty of the other options has thoroughly worn off, thus increasing the friction for other people still wanting to explore the other options.
Because of the low amount of friction (which makes it easier to still get to play what you want even in short playing sessions), I think XIV's community has become conditioned to always expect others to go for the most efficient alternative: for example, dashing through Sastasha along the straightest line possible even if they wouldn't mind looking around in the side rooms this run since it's been a while. And breaking this expectation of "oh the others will want to be as fast as possible even if I wouldn't mind taking the scenic route" is what would be needed to make exploration and other such choices meaningful again.
Honestly I wont miss certain older dungeons design choices, but i also do feel a bit sad at the loss of unique features some of these dungeons had, the streamlining was certainly much needed though.
Tho i think copperbells bosses all could have just used some speeding up, make us not wait so long for the bomb to explode/respawn, make the adds spawn faster in the first/last bosses rooms since classes have more reliable aoe now. There was just so much standing around with ZERO threat that it became tedious after 10 runs, let alone the number of times I've been there as a veteran
It's quite a heated topic, but most curious when you hear people scream about how boring and samey modern dungeons are, and how this just takes away the only dungeons that are different, are the same people who yelled the loudest in angers when those same dungeons popped in their roulette.
I think a lot of the dungeon problems could be solved with challenges and or/mythic dungeons
Your comment about being yelled at for not pulling wall to wall is why I STOPPED tanking for any open group. period. They can have their tank issue, I refuse to play that way.
I hate being in the minority in this case. But it is what it is, my opinion simply doesn't matter. So boring hallways it is. So no character customization it is. At least I still get open world exploration.
This is the first I've heard of ARR's stat allocation, but from personal experience, that type of system isn't really a choice at all because FFXIV's core gameplay loop is absolutely not built around this type of "objective creativity", which is more of an illusion of choice in that circumstance than anything. As a fan of Etrian Odyssey and the 2005 game FATE, I know what that type of highly customizable stat points or skill trees looks like when done well, and in my personal opinion, MMOs in general really do not lend themselves very well to those systems.
On another note: FFXIV's dungeon design doesn't really feel like a good place to put "creative" effort. At least in the sense of making said dungeons centered around exploration. Instead, I feel like that sort of thing could and should be redirected towards overworld maps, where players aren't beholden to the whims of others to be efficient, and are free to take as much time as they want to, y'know, explore? One of the major points this argument seems to hinge itself on? Because I would genuinely rather have more reason to go out into the game's world and look at neat stuff, rather than trying to read bits of lore while a fat mob of monsters are cracking my character over the head with the nearest blunt object.
The problem with the creative options was that they were very surface level, same reason pvp was bad, they tried to copy features but didn't understand why those features were good, we're starting to get some better choices like blue mage and exploratory missions though, at least I think so
Early ARR dungeons were not good nor fun to run. When you’re scaled down and running old copperbell the bosses did nothing interesting so much of it was sit and wait. Other dungeons were annoyingly gimmicky or just don work well with how much damage we do. If exploring is not engaging or fun why explore? In general I think the changes to earlier content was a good move it gives a much more consistent feel to content also if I really want a game to explore ever nook or cranny I’d play another JRPG
I remember when there was the point allocation, and it was terrible, cuz there was a "wrong" way. And honestly even the current way materia works, both give the illusion of choice. There is a best way of doing things. There's a "choice" but there's a best way, so why would you pick an unoptimized meld? I like keeping my customization to what my character looks like, and may be why I also went down the roleplay path lol
As far as the dungeons are concerned, I'm not in dungeons for exploring. yes, some dungeons have gorgeous sights (Temple of the Fist comes to mind for me), but I qued for the exp or gear. I can get my exploration out in the overworld, and that is a favorite past time of mine.
I don't leave comments very often, so i guess this video struck a cord with me XD Thanks for all your vids, you have definitely become one of my new favorite 14 youtubers ^^
Now with the trust system, there’s no reason to listen to the “dungeon enjoyers”.
While i ultimately agree with the final point overall, I can't really agree with the examples given to get there. The community at large does have a nasty habit of being a tad overzealous where it shouldn't… But stats- or rather main stats in specific couldn't or shouldn't have been a "creative" outlet in the first place. I'll get the more nuanced one out of the way first: main stat materia.
Main stat materia was removed because it was actually and statistically useless. melding INT onto a warrior wasn't "creative". Melding str onto red mage wasn't "creative". And even for the "proper" jobs, you couldn't meld the main stat onto your gear ANYWAY because it was natively capped. The ONLY jobs that melded main stat were tanks melding STR because they didnt have it natively on their accessories, and it offered the best return. On the release of stromblood, the disparity between STR and VIT was so large, that endgame tanks were using level 60 striking accessories instead of the level 70 fending accessories. this is ultimately what led to the accessories being role-locked and eventually tanking accessories having full STR. Once tanks couldnt meld STR, there were no classes that could meld their main stat anymore. they just became functionally and mechanically worthless. Why keep items that do nothing? I would argue, getting to choose between DH, crit, det, or ten is more creative than instantly locking STR anyway.
As for the stat allocation, much like main stat materia, wasn't even a GOOD outlet for creativity in the first place. sub-stat scaling on main stat wasn't exactly reliable, and outside of tanks and ARCANIST, your choice was made for you. this isn't even just the community either- it's just how main stats work. To be blunt, things like DEX or STR on a healer, INT on melee, MND on dark knight… These things just didn't do anything- or rather not anything of appreciable value. There are far better ways you could be creative without compromising your character, efficiency or not. Even for more fringe cases like choosing INT for healers so that cleric stance was less punishing could ultimately just be avoided by just… getting better at using cleric stance. Choosing MND on PLD to get that sweet sweet MP for clemency could be alleviated by mitigating the damage or not getting hit by stupid.
As for arcanist, the stat allocation was tied to the CLASS, rather than the JOB, so that forced summoners and scholars to either constantly reset their points or just accept one job would lose out on points- an objectively bad design choice. That likely didnt help the feature's longevity
I don't mind the dungeons and whatnot but I will say you noted one thing that really bothers me. Events. When I played an event, I wanted to play an event. Not just a single quest and then I move on. My favorite events were the one where we met Iroha (and honestly I want more ff11 and ff14 quests), or the ff15 questline with Noctis. I loved those because they actually had a plot and even if I had to do fates here and there, I didn't care because it was genuinely fun and I enjoyed the questlines. I'm someone who has the goal of doing every side quest in ff14 after getting all my classes to 90, and I've still gotta finish Zandor and start Eureka. Why? Because that mundane shit is fun to me, and the events in games I normally play take mundane shit and make it fun. Whenever an event came out on Phantasy Star Online 2, I'd try to be there because the events I'd normally enjoy introduce characters from other games or whatnot that I can help in quests and get their partner cards, allowing me to fight along side them. My favorite actually had to be the SAO event, because we even got some cutscenes talking to Kirito and Asuna. And that was FUN.
I went on a tangent. basically, I'd prefer longer events with more fun quests. Seasonal or not.
I wish they would add sightseeing mode to all the dungeons
Personally I love the exploration… Wish they had more!
Efficiency wasn't the issue with the dungeons, not for me at any rate. It simply wasn't fun. I physically fell asleep in my chair while in Copperbell. Totorak had that awful slow effect. They were really quite obnoxious experiences. Multiply that over years of running these dungeons countless times and I am ever so thankful for their changes. I just wish that they had done it long ago in response to player complaints rather than to help their bots ("duty support").
6:00 the stat argument, if there was an interesting build you could do i would agree, but the implementation of it was pretty drab, just a few % for X thing, i have no problem with it being deleted.
I think it's a little reductive to just divide the playerbase in 2 along an arbitrary line. I play my favourite job the most, run content with it for the first time, and then when I level the rest I just play what I feel like playing that day.
I remember attribute points, the fact that they were main stats was the problem in my honest opinion. Back in ARR 15 main stats in a type that wasn't VIT or PIE meant a not insignificant amount of damage/healing. If those points were split among 2 or 3 jobs you liked playing, or fully spent in a stat that you weren't using at the time that meant you just lost out on a significant part of your player power. I still have The Keeper's Hymn's on me, the item that let you reset your points because I'd like to play diffrent ones optimally. You could certainly still play other jobs with inefficient attribute points, but at least for me there would always be that voice at the back of my head telling me that 'those points I put into DEX are really helping out on this caster huh'. Removing them was a positive in my opinion, since it removed a step in playing optimally on any one job you liked a little less than your main.
It's also a little generalized of you to say that melding VIT as a tank back in HW made you shunned, mainly because I don't recall melding VIT for tanks to be particularly effective, since tank pieces were already VIT capped because it was considered their 'main stat'. Of course their damage didn't scale off VIT (yet), but off STR, so naturally since they had the option they were going to meld the main stat that actually affected their DPS, an advantage no non-tank job ever had since any piece for a certain job comes main-stat capped for that job. Regardless of which, I for one have never encountered anyone judging another's melds in game before unless they just didn't have any of their pieces melded in high-end content.
This may just be a difference in experience, also regarding the following point: I've never heard anyone complain about seasonal event length. Not in ARR, not in HW, not in SB, not after. Anyone who does probably considers the MSQ of inordinate length as well, at the time or even now.
On further job customization, I actually vastly prefer playing the same version of the same job as everyone else. It makes for a level playing field where the only variables (these days) are gear, melds and skill. A valid counterargument imo is the removal of cross-class abilities. Naturally, there were those that were best suited for high-end play, abilities that affected damage directly or gave a certain useful utility. But I distinctly remember cross-classing raise on a dps job and while it was unusable in combat (since only healers and SMN used to get the trait that allowed for its use in combat) I remember peeling healers off the floor after particularly dodgy bossfights. I understand why it's gone, but on this point I agree with your creativity/efficiency argument. 0/10 give me mercy stroke and fracture back SE.
I just want to get across that it feels to me that you're strawmanning a 'metagamer' that openly complains about minorly inefficient players, when I've just not encountered any of these in FFXIV.
That said, I will say that the most egrigious example that you haven't mentioned is 'job synergy'. Back in the day some DPS jobs used to have weaponskills that applied the effect of 'vulnerability up' of a given physical damage type on any enemy. These could synergize with jobs that had that damage type to deal more damage by a significant amount. This is something that I've actually seen metagamers curate in their parties before, DRG+BRD stands out the most to me. This stands out to me, because MNK used to have a blunt resistance down effect, and to this day MNK is the only blunt-type damage dealer, meaning that MNK had no such synergy with other jobs. Guess my main :^)
On to the main topic of this video which the other arguments were most likely made to reinforce, the new arr dungeons and their more streamlined, linear design. I'll admit, I'm sorta in your camp on the issue. Partially. Back in ARR I would ask first-timers (were I tanking) if they wanted to do a 'full clear' for map completion/exp, or if they wanted to rush through to the end. As the game ad its community have developed, however, and we go further from those warm summer days of the first 2 years of the FFXIV community, the sentiment has indeed developed more towards encouraging speed over consideration for others. Nowadays 'tanxiety' is "cured" by the healer or dps pulling the rest of the packs, while back in the day the tank determined the pace regardless of what the others thought (sometimes to their detriment, as the earlygame has certainly become way easier to tank in general, and about 2 expansions ago pulling more than what the tank could tank or what the healer could heal would lead to a wipe 9/10 times). It's a shame, but seeing how the community has developed away from nurturing and towards competitive play in even its most mundane aspects, a linear dungeon design and a less restrictive cutscene distribution between duties will likely alleviate the issues. Screw Toto-Rak though. That redesign was the sacrifice long deserved.
This book I wrote is getting out of hand, my prose needs some work as well. Closing thoughts: Main stats, being as influential as they are, shouldn't be subject to anything other than iLv, I'm angry at people who say stuff takes too long for existing and similarly, people who dropped out of castrum meridianum because it wasn't praetorium are huge jerks that probably deserve to reside in one of the hells (prolly the hell of Ice, deserters that they are, though an argument could be made for the hell of Earth, defilers of nature > sprouts).
I feel like if you've seen Toto-Rak twenty times before, it doesn't matter how much you like to explore, you're gonna try and run it fast. Trusts for those dungeons seem to me to be a really good way of making them accessible to people who do want to take their time and explore tho
Creativity in single player or otherwise one-time events, and efficiency in group events to respect the time of the players. That is the best balance, imo.
The dungeon changes don't bother me so much, although as a relatively recent player I do sometimes feel like I'd really appreciate more distinguishing features between classes. Rotations and flavor change between classes in the same role, but it all boils down to grabbing aggro and taking hits, doing as much damage as possible, or healing the party. While I'd appreciate more customization, I can definitely see that it'd be hard to pull off and avoid having players just adopt builds that are deemed the best by the community.
Well, it is Final Fantasy. The franchise used to be about more complex dungeons and random encounters. Over time, we all noticed the mainline games getting simpler. While I liked FF12, I think it was the first FF game where I really noticed things just being more linear. Shades of this were in FF10 too but it still had a bit more exploration and fluff.
Early FF14 was trying to appeal to, at the time, a generation of players who had been playing games like EQ, DAOC, WoW etc. You can see those influences in the early original game.
But the fact is people don't want annoyance, frustration and winding dungeons. We saw the single player FF games evolves this way over time. Square wants you to have fun while making progression with more action packed gameplay…a deviation from the more complex JRPGs it used to compete with.
This is overall good. FF fills a great niche in the gaming market. And people who want harder games sometimes can boot up an Altus or Fromsoft game.
To be fair, the creative content that used to exist was worthless. Your stat allocation made no appreciable difference. The little nooks in dungeons offered nothing useful or interesting. The illusion of creative toys is worse than no creative choice.