Well it’s been a little while since Dawntrail dropped, and so its time for us to sit down and talk about the most Divisive expansion FF14 has ever seen.
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So obviously this expansion is very divisive and the conversation surrounding it can get pretty heated. Like Mike mentioned in the video even in our own office we don't agree on it – I cannot tell you how long me and Mike have spent debating aspects of this MSQ 😂
As ever though even when we are critical, we are trying to do so through well reasoned discussion and to offer balanced takes on the subject. I hope y'all in the comments can do the same.
While I'm not exactly a fan of the current story and themes and despise both Wuk Lamat and her voice actor, there's one thing I like and it's very specific: More ghosts and undead enemies. The Picto quests have you deal with some and there's more of them in dungeons. I look forward to exploring Eorzea's Bermuda Triangle.
I didn't like Wuk Lamat since endwalker, starting by that ugly hat she was wearing, and given the choice I'd gone with the other cat.
Also the whole premise of the rite of succession is dumb, just the thought of a giving a fair claim to a couple of fosters, let alone outsiders, would plunge the realm into civil war; Dance of the Dragon being a close example…
But, this time around, I was a skipper, so what do I know
Its divisive? I thought the consensus was that the story is pretty bad, with only a minority group liking it. While combat content wise, its been an upgrade, with a couple of people complaining its too hard.
Power of friendship solving politics definitely felt off given how well these were addressed in previous expansions, like the level of maturity really got dumbed down.
I'd actually like to imagine what Wuk's reaction would've been to pre-liberation Garlemald and how she would've handled all that resentment towards outsiders where not even the twins' sincerity could reach people like Quintus.
Ngl i think that when people say they hate dawntrail 99% of the tjme they just mean wuk lamat was used too much.
Outside of that its been great
The MSQ defines the rest of the experience for me. It gives sentimental value to every other piece of content in the expansion, atleast for me.
Dawntrail was not a good MSQ for me. It was horrible. That’s why I couldn’t enjoy any other piece of content.
The loss of 'grit' in the world was a feeling that crept up early. And with Wuk Evu's somewhat automated behaviour, I was actually hoping for a Westworld twist. That the Golden City was a device used by the Dawnservant to create this artificially happy world for one generation. Leaving the creation of the next to his successor. It just seemed too far from how Etheris was presented to us so far. Alas…
FF14 is a story game
The story is shit
Therefore, Dawntrail is shit
What's there to discuss? If I wanted a gameplay MMO, I'd play the dozen other ones on the market. FF14's selling point always has been and always will be the MSQ. If it's shit, the game's shit. Simple as.
With the revelation of the Endless and how Sphene was essentially the cherry picked memories of someone to better fit Preservation's goals, I fully expected Cahciua to be a modified version of her original self that would function as a spy for Sphene and make the rebel cell ultimately useless. No idea if that would've added anything to the story, but it felt like a missed beat.
Pacing and writing. Both dragged the story down. The devs just stuck too much to the tried and true formula: introduce two zones and the problems the new people deal with. It already started in HW where we got to the cloud area and a frozen wasteland, we learn about a new primal and the problems with the heratics, both being important later on. In DT we got introduced to two (2) tribes out of nine (9!! and actually more than that), and we get the two new zones, a jungle and a rough sparse mountain area. Yet nothing we learn there has any real implications for the story forward: these are only two feats of the trial. And though there were some interesting points… to quote Bildo: "like butter streched on too much bread". Everything that happened afterwards was rushed, especially the X'braal and the Mamool Ja story. Because they had to stick to the formula: 1st dungeon at lvl x1, then the journey starts at lvl x2 (in HW, to stick to that example, it was our team up with Lady Iceheart after the Trial-by-combat), then another dungeon at lvl x3, followed by the first trial at the same level (they changed it after HW where the trial came first, then the dungeon, but from ShB onwards its lvl x3 dungeon then trial, Dohn Mheg and Titania). The story reaches it preliminary conclusion at lvl x5 (in HW thats killing Nidhogg, in DT, Wuk Lamat becomes Dawnservant after the dead-baby-dungeon). Then things happen and everything changes somehow. In HW we find out that the archbishop has something fish planned and the streets burn and Aymeric needs our help – time for dungeon lvl x7, The Vault. In Dawntrail the bubble appears after some schenanigans in Shaolaani, and the Gulool Ja Ja gets murdered and Tural invaded. We build a big bad train, breach into the bubble, and have our lvl 97 dungeon, Vanguard. Story draws to a close, we believe the end is in sight with dungeons lvl x9 – though HW is a bad example now, so lets move to ShB again where this part of the formula began: Mount Gulk at lvl 79 with the following trial against Innocence, also lvl 79. We got our tower-climbing dungeon in DT (forgot the name… they are all the same or impossible to spell anyway…) and the following trial against Zoraal Ja. We thought we "won" in ShB with the death of Innocence, only for Emet-Selch to reveal his true colors, followed by an "unexpected" new zone, The Tempest, things werent as unexpected anymore in DT because… EW too stuck to the same formula as ShB – so DT would, too! And it did, to the most minute T! It was a gorgeous zone, and like in ShB and EW, we got to learn who and what our real enemy is and their motivation. Followed by the lvl x(x)0 dungeon and end-trial. Followed by a cheesy but usually cool and emotional cut-scene. And thats it, that the expansion.
I think they could've saved themselves a lot of trouble, if they would just… you know… changed things up a bit… Not sticking to this formula to striktly. I dont mind formulas in the dungeons, I like knowing that there will be 3 bosses waiting for me, some flavor-trash and a (more or less) 20 minute investment. But when its about the main story in a game that is prized for its story… it was a handicap, and I believe its one of the reasons the story pacing failed as miserably as it did.
I skipped some dialog. I never skip dialog. And then i actually dropped the game before even being halfway through. Wuk lamat is such a boring, annoying and stupid character, i swear to god
"Don't worry – The scary adventurer won't try anything"
Yep…
For you Mike i'll watch a last video about Dawntrail before moving on!
Still have to start Elden Ring DLC, finish Shin Megami Tensei V, there's EDF6 too that i want to try and i'm in deep in PoE this league where i usually quit in white maps!
Not even talking about future games like Space Marine 2 (Warhammer winter COPIUM) and Visions of Mana looks promising.
Not enough time after work to waste on dislike or hate.
Nailed it. I can't remember if I ever had such a hard time finishing a story campaign for FF14. Took me way longer than it should and felt like I had to force myself for most of it.
Didn't play Endwalker after 6.0 with all the amazing games coming out in 2023. After doing 6.1 to 7.0 in the last two months, the change in writing was baffling.
As you said, it felt like they changed the target audience, I don't think it's fair to call it a Saturday kids cartoon. To me it felt more like a beloved show that finished being suddenly given to Netflix to comeback and continue, in terms of writing at least. I'm sure plenty of people liked this direction, I just wasn't one.
I honestly don't want to go through another experience like that. With FF14 streamers like you and Jessie Cox reading everything and being entertaining, I'd rather just watch the MSQ on my second screen if I ever feel like it. DT really killed any interest I had for a post Endwalker FF14 world.
Honestly I knew the story was doomed when we saw who the writer for this msq was, all the stuff they've done is bad or mid
Yoshi-P: The Scions will not be front and center this expansion
the Scions are not front and center this expansion
People: WTF? Why weren't the Scions front and center this expansion?
Like I'm still of the opinion that the biggest missed opportunity with DT was to fully retire the Scions as background characters akin to your Lyses and Raubahns. We could've met more new and interesting characters to accompany us on our journey. It would've also made the "incessant focus on Wuk Lamat" which was a huge problem for people, much more "bearable" because you would've also been getting to know other new characters.
Can't say I disagree with most of what you said, especially the part of them trying to do too much in one expansion and how it felt slow yet rushed at the same time. The one thing I think Dawntrail is great in is its theme of remembering those who have passed on and honoring their memory (Living Memory is the first time I've ever cried while playing this game). The parallels between the Yok Huy's tradition and the entire back half of the MSQ were done very, very well in my opinion. It was funny because I watched Frieren not too long after finishing the MSQ, and I kept thinking about how that theme was very present in that story too.
For negatives I would add on though… what even are Wuk Lamat and Zoraal Ja's backstories? Why exactly does Wuk care about vying for peace so much other than "oh well that's what my dad fought for" and why is Zoraal Ja so fixated on territorial expansion other than "I'm strong and my father cares about Wuk and Koana more than me"? The dynamic between Zoraal Ja and his siblings felt so unexplored. This allowed Bakool Ja Ja to shine more I guess, who absolutely did have the best character arc, but is there anybody that actually cares about Zoraal Ja or feels bad about him? Maybe they'll do something with Galool Ja to make me care more about Zoraal Ja, but for now that entire character seemed like a massive waste to me.
22:00 even The Phantom Menace got this right by dividing the 2v1 at the end with laser barriers that blocked off immediate access to the room the fight was happening. When even the star wars prequels do sth better there's a clear problem.
So happy you brought up the missed opportunity with the Native American analogues. On seeing the names of the zone, I got really excited, because I could tell which name was coming from which group of Native Americans, and I really wanted to those references fleshed out. Yet….nothing.
The scene at the end of the final msq trial? trash. whoever thought of copying someone else's homework should know context where it works, where it don't.
Wuk lamat's story should be till the rite ends. That was her part. For the 2nd half, she can join, but this threat is totally out of her league. You don't put someone who got kidnapped few levels earlier to suddenly be able to fight on par with dimensional threat. Let her fail. Let her get slapped so hard by dimensional threat to know that she needs to grow stronger even more because now she's the dawnservant. and to be able to stand by you, who's fighting for the world against otherworldly being.
That last scene alone make me put DT as trash tier MSQ. FF14 should still be YOUR story, not 99% someone else, and you for 5 seconds before that someone take it over again.
I started to dislike Erenville this expansion, the man is sooo 1 dimensional 😀
Sigh this, sigh that and no real drive for anything and the one point he does say something important its at the very end of the expansion.
Cool.
The angsty pantsy attitude was fun once or twice toward Wuk Lamat, but when thats his only personality trait it gets annoying.
It was a very mediocre MSQ . Not terrible but not good.
I have a hard time believing people who "loved it". Especially if they played through previous expansions. Unfortunately FFXIV has a large portion of players that praise anything the game does and treats legitimate criticism as hate
Personally after playing since ARR I didn't want to see the scions at all for this next story. I wanted a new cast of traveling companions and I got the closest I think I'll get because they keep putting in the scions for fan service.
The wol taking a step back and acting as a mentor is also a big step in development for them as a character.
This is also a story with a lot of real world baggage. And they managed to avoid the white saviour colonialist story by helping rather than doing everything ourselves. We trust the people living there instead of calling cid to help with everything, because they're just as capable on their own and can solve stuff their own way. Sometimes they just need a little push.
The worst part for me wasn't Wuk Lamat seeking peace and unity of the people but that there were THREE villains (Zakuul Ja, Sphene and Bakuul Ja Ja) who all tried genocide and who we were supposed to feel for and who Wuk Lamat evne forgave for their deeds. I guess a troubled past justifies even that.
I cheered every time the scions would fuck off personally. Seeing Estinien do his own thing made him the best Scion of the story, because he was just vibing doing cool stuff.
Looking forward to more Wuk Lamat and all the malding it will bring.
Dawntrail made me glad that I ignored the hype for the expansion. I was so busy with other games that I didn’t have time to get involved. Despite not being hyped up, the expansion was still very disappointing.
the only thing i hate about this (that i havent experienced personally but watched video) was that the english dubbed was absolutely trashing this expansion. i love the fact that this is the beginning of a triology of a great series of new stories… honestly, people who complained dont have idea how the story begins and they just want high and high and i bet you. those who mostly complained are coming from WoW to ruined our experience.
I remember hearing when DT was first shown this idea of a light-heated summer vacation expansion, and seeing the Scions all relaxing and having a good time in the trailer. I thought "you know what I'm down for a silly summer vacation with the Scions. That sounds like fun." Cut back the tension and just let these characters relax and shine a bit without the weight of the world on their shoulders, and that's not what we got at all. The closest we got to that was some character moments in Living Memory, G'raha's boat and ice cream scene. Krile meeting and talking to her parents, and the social awkwardness that came with it. Also they sold this idea the scions would be competing against one another. That we'd be in competition with the Dads of The Seventh Dawn, and we really didn't see a lot of that outside of the 91 dungeon where Thancred blocks a path. I would've loved a light-hearted dungeon boss fight against Thancred or something with him talking smack the whole way, and have Urianger doing some trickery stuff to push us towards where Thancred is waiting. We didn't get that. They didn't outright falsely advertise, but it felt like bare minimum of what they said. I don't need every story to be dark or morally grey and "Mature," but if you are going to bring in Mature topics like Racism and Eugenics, then you gotta show them with as much maturity as possible and have the characters respond in a Mature way. Also "Rubber Bullets" in the Wild West inspired zone is just so weak lol. It also felt like so many missed Gameplay opportunities, the defending the bomb train should've been an instance or something. I mean make it like Air Force One at the gold saucer, anything but a cool cutscene that I have no participation in.
The biggest problem is the way the writers treat the player (not the WoL, the player) like a moron for the first 5 zones.
Every major character explains their motivation in a monologue every 15 minutes. Wuk does it the most, but Sphene, Zoraal Ja, bakool ja ja, and the bandit fella we help in zone 4 all do the same thing. Can't have real character interaction, that would require someone to interpret what people mean by the things they say to each other. Instead we just do endless monologues, and it makes me hate every single one of those characters.
And every time some plot point is introduced, they have one of the 'supporting' cast summarise what happened in an aside to the camera. The scene where we meet the hostile giants is the best example – their leader literally says something along the lines of 'we don't follow those peace-loving fools', and alphinaud does his thinking pose and says (to literally nobody – it's almost a 4th wall break) "It seems there are factions even among the Yok Huy". Like no shit Alphinaud that's what they JUST TOLD US. Nobody needed that plot point explaining.
We even have the dora the fucking explorer scene at the top of the yok huy mountain. She even fucking pauses like Dora to wait for the audience to shout the answer at their screens for her. It's rage-inducing.
Bringing all the scions and wildly underusing them to the point that they're totally out of character because they AREN'T doing anything they would naturally do only compounds the problem because we feel resentment that our well-loved characters are being neglected in favour of these monologue machines.
There's nothing wrong with Wuk Lamat's personality, or her story. It's all about how it's presented and shown, and it's just terrible character writing until the final zone, which flips everything around and has good character writing but a terrible plot that Graha and the WoL would never, ever, ever blindly go along with without question.
6:43 I doubt very much that XIV writing team would make decisions about what character is present or absent in the plot based on the availability of English Voice Acting cast.
You hate Dawntrail because you cannot stand the new main character (previously Alphinaud now Wuk Lamat).
I hate it because I had enough of Shadowbringers' braindead healers and overly static and scripted content design, and cannot tolerate another expansion of it.
We are not the same.
I made my ultimatum: If you want my money, make healers fun again (e.g. stormblood Scholar).
Imagine a storyline with Lyse.
Now imagine midway in you don't get a break with Hien and Yugiri.
That's Dawntrail in a nutshell.
it was worse than stormblood for me.
This whole MSQ boils down to "what if we turned SOMA into an episode of Sesame Street?"
"I have 2 children and it doesnt work like that" is THE understatement of the year or something! But please DO enlighten us how kings an queens, how politicians and in general people of power of ANY era, how much MOST of them REALLY understand/understood/will understand "their" people ESPECIALLY during their child years. That was a good one Preach 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣The hate on Wuk-Tang Clang 😅😉😅is UNREAL🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
What I hated myself about the expansion is how we are basically back to being level 1 adventurer while Wuk Lamat was this 1000 level character, who is a god and basically can't be defeated. In the last trial we had I just gave up on the story and writing, it was the last straw that was on it's last lifeline. It's one thing to be on the side-line, it's another having a character that is 100 times stronger then us in every way. And I hate how everything in DT is black and white, nothing in between, like in other expansions we had where nothing can go wrong, where villains were relatable. Emit, Zenos, Gaius … you can literally listen to this characters and understand where they come from, in DT it was just "I WANT TO BE KING WEEEE"
The worst part for me is that this should have been an adventure already. We had all the Azem lore, we know what their position was. This could have been a huge adventure on a new continent. Remove the Scions completely – which would also make it a much much higher impact when they come later! Let us travel with Wuk, Krile and Erenville only (cause they have REASONS to be here). Let the others have a break! Let us make a new group of Tulal people!
I think Dawntrail screams "wasted potential" and "missed opportunity" on every single little corner here. The "wait and see" approach sounds absolutely aweful.
Smile really is the worst song in ff14… I skipped the literal final cutscene to not hear it
You know, Wuk's dad never needed to tell this random adventurer he doesn't even know everything about her past so that the henchmen could just hear it.
I just didn't bother with Dawntrail to begin with😅 I'm sure it's decent enough, but I don't mind waiting one or two expansions and then just play through it at my own pace.
I'm a 1.0 player…so I have a high tolerance for XIV😂 But I just don't care doing stuff on content anymore, I quit back in 2.1 and came back at the end of Stormblood. Played til 4.4, then quit again til EW. Then quit in 5.3 and now I'm good waiting til 7.0 or even 8.0 to jump back in again.
It's like dawntrail was written by interns, the music and combat content are great tho
You can't hate on the song "Smile" because Wuk Lamat's English VA tweeted about it and implied it's racist to not like the song… 🤣