Did Zodiark and Hydaelyn temper their followers in Final Fantasy XIV? Let’s dive deeper into how tempering works, and the evidence for my answer we can find in the game.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I know Emet is tempered, purely because he's a reasonable guy, hell, he's a genius, but aether somewhat follows the rules of conservation of energy. There is no way to bring more sacrifice for an even bigger reward. It's just not possible.
You missed the part where Livingway says "well unless it's a very powerful primal like Zodiark then you might feel a small tug" So that could of been the tempering Emet-Selch was speaking about. It would also be on brand cause he has a big issue in conflating things, at least old ascian Emet-Selch. So to him that "tug" is exactly the same as the primals but we are too "weak and feable" to not answer to it's calls. Least that's how I imagine he would put it when he is in pure ego state.
2:58 Does anyone who how much time passed between the Final Days , and when Venat sundered the world? I always thought it happened all in one day, but that doesn't sound right…
6:01 wait, is Emet Selch saying that Zodiark tempered the world….and everyone was brainwashed??? Wow!
6:53 i really hope this is how 6.5 ends. We get to do a REAL trial with Zodiark at his prime. And we fight with Venat as Hydaelyn and help her Kill Zodiark!
Forgive the novel, please. I am not very concise.
There are other factors to consider:
We know there are primals created without the conditions typically seen in summoning: Bahamut through sheer prayer of the dragons of Merycidia and Zantetsuken (Odin's sword is the actual primal) created through yet another primal. You learn about Odin through completing Eureka. We also know becoming an 'elder primal' is simply how long a primal has been worshipped.
As you pointed out Emet's dialogue, even using Creation Magicks, the Ancients were still tempered (which I think the quest "Thou Must Live, Die and Know" is supposed to illustrate) and were blind to anything but Zodiark's will. They didn't even stop to consider Venat's words DESPITE it being established that her wisdom was valued as her being the previous Azem. Very early in the game, it keeps being mentioned by the primals that we are already 'blessed.' Doing the summoner quests show that having a shred of the primal's essence in your soul blocks this tempering, so no Echo/Blessing of Light required (the quest implies that not all the summoners had the echo to begin with, but were within the primal's vicinity when it was slain. Unless I am misremembering). When Ysale was killed, we saw with her death a flash of light, denoting her as 'one of Hydaelyn's chosen.'
However, I would like to point out Minfilia's changes as she comes closer and closer to Hydaelyn. Through quests and dungeons, we can see that a primal can repeatedly temper their thralls, resulting in their physical appearance changing (Sastasha normal and hard, Turn 9 and Turn 12 of Coil). Minfilia was stated as someone already being the closest to Hydaelyn, but once she chooses to be with Her, Minfilia's eyes become an unnatural blue that is also reflected in the Oracle of Light (before taking that influence back and restoring Ryne).
What isn't clear to me is if the tempering can't be removed, as we see with Ryne? Or if the tempering of Zodiark and Hydaelyn are the same – yet different. After the fight with Elidibus, he is reminded of why he took up his duty. It comes across, to me anyway, that Zodiark and Hydaelyn ramp up one's desires to make them align with their own and then use that desire. Look back up at my second paragraph; the followers wanted a return to their paradise enough to willingly offer their own lives up to Zodiark for the cause while ignoring the council of someone they otherwise would have listened to. This would also explain WHY the divide in the population was unprecedented (Elidibus mentions they had disagreements, but they were never on this scale). You could argue that we are certainly tempered by Hydaelyn because everything we have done until now has to oppose Zodiark and end the Final Days. You could say that this was our sheer desire to live, but what if it's also because Hydaelyn wanted us to keep living? Countless others fell to their emotions and became Blasphemies. Whereas the other primals simply rob others of all will, like Louisoix turning on his own grandchildren, for instance.
Venat identify that the warrior of light came from the future because of her spell, if venat temper the WoL and others that would mean temper was a common spell in the time of the ancients. Everything they made was temper to the ancient.
Edit: sorry for my English I still learning
My personal theory is that Hydaelyn DOES temper, much in the same way Zodiark does– that "small tug" as mentioned in other comments. But it's a passive thing, not really a conscious choice, something she needs to mark with that Traveler's Brand to counteract.
SPOILERS FOR MYTHS OF THE REALM BELOW
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Based on what we've seen from Euphrosyne and how The Twelve are aspects of Hydaelyn she's split off, I think that THEY are the bits that her particular flavour of "tempering" leads to, these manufactured Gods– little pieces of Hydaelyn that she's actively trying to push AWAY from herself so that she doesn't accidentally create Light-aspected Ascians or an equivalent. It also explains in part how The Twelve have some kind of presence in hugely disparate locations (Such as Azeyma/Oschon and Azim, Menphina/Nymeia and Nhaama, etc.) it's all Hydaelyn, it's just that she's made something to be worshipped in place of herself. But THAT'S JUST A THEORY~~
For me there's two kind of tempering, scholar in Eorzia just happen to not know the difference and put them in the same category
The first on is the mind control. It is near instantaneous and make you devout to the primal. If I had to theorize I'd say it tempers with you memory's Aether. The Echo protect from this kind of tempering and Alisaie is able to heal it with Angelo
The second is the bodily changed. This take a long time and change the balance of physical Aether in your body making you become a monster. Alisaie cannot heal that with Angelo and people with the Echo aren't immune to it but since it take time people with the Echo have a chance to get far away from the primal (either by fleeing or killing the primal) before any irreversible change to their Aether happen so unless they are chaining Primal killing like someone completing their wonderous tail as fast as possible they will never suffer from that second kind of tempering
The blessing of light/traveler's ward protect again that second kind of tempering. This is how our WoL was able to take so much light Aether during the event of ShB
This is also why Alisaie and Angelo can only save people who haven't transform into sin eater yet on the first. First it affect them mentally, making them less and less conscious and then after a while their physical Aether shift and they become sin eater. It's not exactly the same as primal tempering but I'm pretty confident the same Aetheric principal are at work here. This is why those with the could fight sin eater without fearing being transform and they were immune to the first step so they would never evolve into the second step, but only us could face lightwarden and not anybody with the echo
IN the same vein of Emet-Selch not lying, neither does Livingway have any reason to lie either in her explanation of the two original Primals.
I'm pretty sure this case is the same as The Twelve
Prayers and offerings of aether did fed her and The Twelve without tempering, for they doesn't corrupts one's aether.
She did that in full knowledge of future events.
She knows that giving people the free will while creating protective beings is controversial, but likewise she developed the Travelers Ward of her own
She is a scholar, and may have developed a means to fed on people's aether without tempering them
Her will is not absolute above others, but she clings only to "trust"
I agree with your take on this, and believe that Hydaelyn didn't temper, as free will was such a large part of Venat. This carried over into the many people she had chosen as her champions, all across the shards. They were all free to make their own choices. And honestly, game-wise, it would suck to think us, as the players, was under some sort of tempering the entire time.
You know I was thinking about the ward Venat placed on the WoL and how that seems to be a retcon of the echo keeping people safe from tempering right.
I’m not sure if the source material supports this, but in Shadowbringers when Elidibus awakens the echo en mass in people on Norvrandt they began to hear Hydaelyn’s call and iirc Elidibus said something about Hydaelyn constantly broadcasting her message but only echo people could pick it up. What if that broadcast is Hydaelyn imbuing the traveler’s ward. Would make it so only those with the echo could be protected from tempering while the echo itself not being what protects people
who do i believe, Livingway who has a penchant for being flippant about serious issues calling tempering a small tug, or Emet-Selch who never lies, only omits. Hmm
I could have sworn it was a translation thing and the assumption that every single person who has the echo automatically has the blessing of light when in reality they are two separate things
I also seem to remember in shadowbringers they made it a point to show that the Echo and the blessing of light were separate, and that getting the blessing of the light also awakened to the echo in the Warrior of light or something to that effect.
I was also wondering if it might be the case that Hydaelyn had always had an active heart in Venat. Zodiark used to have Elidibus, but Elidibus withdrew himself which may have had unintended consequences. In any event I feel like there's quite a bit of retcon involved, so I'm content not to let it ruin my enjoyment too much tempered as I am by FFXIV's story.
Correction, Loporrits say that even if you summon correctly, you may still feel "a little tug" if it's a being on Zodiark's scale. So neither Livingway nor Emet lied. Awesome video though!
My theory is that the due to the particular nature of their respective aspects, tempering is caused by the "active/astral/darkness" alignment of Zodiark and the many other primals; Ifrit being "astral fire" actively moving the aspect of a person's aether towards fire-alignment. In inverse, Hydaelin and her alignment to "passivity/umbral/light" allows her not to affect change in a person's aether, and so the "fixed" primal summoning resulted in an "umbral fire" for the "fixed" Ifrit which does not cause tempering.
I don't think it'll ever be 100% clear if Zodiark tempers or not and I don't think it matters in the grand scheme of the story.
If we go with the take that Zodiark does indeed temper then it would make the Ascians unwitting victims of Zodiark. However the sheer length of time that the Ascians spent trying to rejoin the worlds and causing calamities most likely eclipses the amount of time Zodiark was ever a whole and conscious entity and since the council of Ancients were the ones who summoned him in the first place the responsibility is still on Emet Selch, Elidibus, Lahabrea, and the rest of the Ascian leadership.
Proving that Zodiark did or didn't wouldn't change who the antagonists are or them being guilty of the crimes they've committed.
The real question and good video worth making would be 'Is Emet Selch tempered?' Because Lahabrea's aether had diminished so much through body hopping that maybe he wasn't tempered at first but is now and Elidibus was Zodiark's heart so maybe is tempered by default. Emet Selch is said to be the most powerful ancient so if anyone could be resistant to tempering he would be.
He admits that he's tempered yet physically displays sadness and reluctance to strike Alisaie in the final confrontation, he hears out the Scions every time they argue with him and in his arguments to rebuke them he never once falls back on "Cause Zodiark wills it".
The only parts that point towards him being tempered is how quick he is to condemn the WoL when he/she couldn't contain the Lightwarden's aether. Almost relieved that he didn't have to pretend to be their ally any longer and the final quest when he moves the goalposts by proclaiming that the Final Days of Amaurot will be the WoL and Scion's "final" judgment only for them to triumph and he shows up and basically says "Nah didn't count" and wipes the floor with them. But even then these points are debatable.
I think the reason zodiark tempers would be discovered in pandaemonium
The keywards Hesperos,Hegimone and Agtistis seemed to express differrnt symptoms of tempering because of Hephaistos's meddling
If hephaistos's actions are based on Athena's research maybe Zodiark was a concept made by athena when she intended for her and Lahabrea to discover godhood.Zodiark concept would be sealed away never to be heard of until the final days where either Lahabrea or his Hephaistos half dug it back up as a last resort
Regarding hydaelyn tho,she doesnt temper
Evident by the fact that throughout history there have been one warrior of light who betrayed hydaelyn.I dont remember his name but he sided with Ultima the high seraph
The echo being the protection against tempering was implied by scholars of the world, it was never proven to be true. On the contrary, there is evidence in ARR that the echo does not protect against tempering. In ARR patch 2.2, Through the Maeltrom, there is a Sahagin Priest who is using the echo, in fact a more powerful version of the echo. It is also implied that the priest is tempered and is why he is summoning Leviathen. We know that primals do not like or listen to people who have a protection against them. Thus the issue with Ifrit when he noticed he could not temper the WoL and noticed his protection. So either the Sahajin priest was protected by the Echo and the Leviathen was playing a 4D chess game until the priest became vulnerable through the use of the echo. Though there is no reason to believe at all that Leviathen is privy to echo information and how it works. Or the Sahajin priest was tempered and was also still using the Echo and the Echo provided no protection against tempering.
Then in Shadowbringers is that Emet confirms that the convocation was tempered in some fashion. We also have Elidibus/Ardbert confirming that the "Echo" was a fraction of the potential people had. So the ancients, with the access to the echo or even a more powerful version of it, were still tempered by Zodiark. Then in Shadowbringers the WoL, who is now like 8/14th the power of an ancient, can take on the full force of an entire planets strength of light into themselves. This is implying that a "half" an ancient has the potential to resist the strength of an entire planet. What this is all about is that the Ancients, if the echo was what was used to resist tempering, were more then powerful enough to resist the Zodiark tempering. This is not what happened though since the echo in of itself never prevented tempering from Zodiark. It was just the assumption that the echo prevent tempering.
It should be mentioned on the amount of tempering that can be done. Shiva seems to have done no tempering to those around her, while in the Amaalja beast tribe a woman was tempered many times to the point where she thought a rock was her baby to sacrificed to Ifrit. Then you have the Heavensward who were tempered enough to be absolutely loyal to the Archbishop and then (iirc) tempered again. So I believe there are various ways to tempering that hasn't been specifically touched upon.
Another good example of someone being in close contact to Hydaelyn without tempering is Kryle.
One thing that links all of Vanats's chosen that we with meet or know their history is they seem to have awakened to the echo so perhaps she relies on this to commune without tempering.
Given the implications of the God Raids, we might get more answers when the final one releases.