This video has been stuck in my head for a year, being worried about spoilers, but I just had to get it out. It’s Warcraft and Final Fantasy, sure, but it’s also about tropes. And since I know the ol’ WoW vs FFXIV video thing is a trope in itself – it’s fitting. But the more I think about these two bosses – I have to ask, are they the same thing? And why does it work with FFXIV’s Endsinger and not WoW’s Jailer?
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#FinalFantasyXIV #WorldofWarcraft #WoWvsFFXIV
Chapters
00:00 – Introduction
00:41 – What is a trope?
02:01 – The worst MMORPG trope
02:58 – World of Warcraft
05:59 – Final Fantasy XIV
17:03 – Shadowlands by Jesse Cox
20:27 – Conclusion
source
6.3 hype train
is “tragic villain” really a trope
Just going to throw this out there. With Hearts Aligned on Endsinger phase two knocks the entire jailer fight out of the park..
Jus sayin..
Shadowlands had their best new character, Denathrius, die in the first raid and never did enough with the past villains. Sure, they were bosses and did stuff but there wasn't enough focus on that aspect. WoW also tried to make everything the Jailer's fault. Like he affected everything we fought and made it more like our choices didn't matter. That it was fated.
GW2 kind of had a similar theme with their Void and that whole story. Spoilers:
You chase a sky pirate from Season 1 onto an isolated continent from GW1. Followed by a mutiny and the death of the character we were chasing. The final fight, solo story wise, was with your allies over the game against the Dragon of each expansion on floating platforms in the sky. The music playing each different boss theme. Cinematics show the Void effecting core areas making it a global threat. The expansion has issues, but that story nailed it for me. WoW just didn't. Warlords of Draenor was where they failed me. They had a great set up and just use it as a funnel into Legion. I'm glad they are back on Azeroth, but I don't care about the Primalists at all as a villain.
i enjoy FF14 but find it very hard to focus on the story or get into it when… only 10% of it is voice acted… esp a AAA mmo.. even ESO was fully voiced.. its pretty pathetic
As a long time fan of you and both of these games, I could not agree more with all of this. I hope to see WoW storytelling grow and can't wait to see where the new FF arc is heading. Had me sobbing reliving ff moments and at the idea of WoW rewarding us after all these years!
maybe?
The biggest caveat here is that Shadowlands was obviously never meant to be a "saga finale" like Endwalker. None of the marketing pre-launch ever gave that idea. They only pivoted into that mid-expansion AFTER Endwalker came out and was so successful. None of the groundwork was laid beforehand and yet Acti-Blizz still wanted to reap the fruits of an un-earned epic conclusion.
One small aspect I think is helpful in Endsingers favor and in endwalkers favor… there are no genius master plans. The jailer was painted as a master planer, a being playing 4D chess. In endwalker. That was entirely absent.
Even the accians weren't painted and Uber smart geniuses.
Every plan is relatively simple. Everyone's modivations are pretty straightforward. Even fandanial and xeno's. And the end singers final plan, was to simply wait.
Zodiark couldn't protect the world forever. And so, like the inevitable death of the universe. They waited for zodiark.
After all what does time mean to dispair?
Jailer wouldve been this really awesome new villain for WoW to have for longer time since it wouldve made sense with all the powerups he got throughout the expansion, that he would actually be unstoppable. Instead the chosen, champions of Azeroth, why theyre chosen heroes, who knows, just beat him as soon as they got to him, sadge.
I love seeing your comparisons of wow v ff14. This is the first wow expansion since legion I haven't played at launch.
The reasons you pointed out in this has been my major issue with WoW ever since I started playing. It's never been about this lowly scrub of an ork (or whatever wrong choice of race you made,) rising through the ranks and becoming the next big hero. It's always been "oh you're doing great, but now suddenly the boss has plot armor and plot weapons! Good thing existing heroes are here to bail you out!" And just like you, this is why I gravitated towards FFXIV because it made me feel like everything I did mattered and/or was important. Yes, I had characters come and bail me out of situations, but I never once felt like I wasn't important. I never once never felt like THE character of the game. Thank you once again Jesse for hitting the point of the major differences between these two games and I look forward to your next comparison/deep dive!
I think the way I kinda look at endsinger that I think really reframes the villain in a better way. is that I don't really see the endsinger as a brand new, separate character, but rather an extension or reprisal of Fandaniel and his motives/flaws. It wasn't like fandaniel was "following" the endsingers plan all along, or anything like that, it was HIS mistake that escalated out of control, and the very same mistake that shaped him as a person. So at risk of mimicking the condescending attitude of the ascians, I dont see endsinger as a living being, just as the failed creation of fandaniel. To me, it wasnt some random external threat that invited the ascians downfall, but the failure of one of their own people.
At first I was like 'Ah Jesse gushing about Endwalker–' but when I heard the alternative take to how WoW could've gone…
Truthfully it hurt the heart, he's right. 100%. I'd say the biggest issue with Shadowlands, that the writers did/do not love these characters as much as the players do. Thus the very idea never crossed their mind.
"the payoff for caring"
This is why The Last Jedi will forever be shit. Forget the original trilogy, The Last Jedi actively spits on the people who saw Force Awakens and cared. When writers value their subversion of expectations more than their audiences investment in the story, that's when you get unadulterated crap.
The problem about WoW's story is it try tell a story when there are none, not in literary term. Try to apply 5W1H to not just the Jailer but most of WoW's stories. You will not find a satisfy answer.
They seriously need to hire you as an overall story and lore director for WoW. Personally the game lost me with Cataclysm and I could never find the will to return after that. As it moved further and further from the roots of WC3 the less I could find to be enthralled by. Maybe it was just me but that's my experience at least. The wider and more spectacular the scope became, the less I cared about it.
Ff14 kicking wow off of its monopolistic throne will probably prove to be the best thing that has happened to it (and the players) in a very long time.
The other problem with Shadowlands was that the Jailer isn't the last BBEG. He ends by telling us there is a worse fate for our universe. The entire afterlife was just a setup for a future xpac…
If they had just focused on, like you say, meeting dead characters etc. and make the rest JUST main storyline that ended after your first toon leveled through it… imagine if they had put in "hunts' with Sylvanas to save souls in the Maw, so instead of grinding souls yourself she would relinquish those she found after finishing Jailer baddies.
Imagine if they put a larger spotlight on the cartels dimension hopping to set up Ve'nari as a Traveler so when Azeroth (who I still think is an Old God that already destroyed the 'world seed' and is growing into a 'Titan' baddie… whole lot there to unpack) hatched, and millions were going to die, warlocks get their moment to shine (whole plot for them in Legion was making portals to off-world site they've never been to, all they need is a powerful fragment of that world/broken space debris).
Imagine how heartbroken we might have actually felt to see souls shatter in the Maw if we had been very successful at saving a large amount of them before both failing to save one in front of us and WITNESSING them being forged into the living armor soldiers…
The only thing I've begun to wonder because of Shadowlands is what the Old Gods really are… were they always eldritch horrors? Or were they lesser deities of their own planets before being shattered? Did they ever really WANT to destroy Azeroth? *SPOILERS (Dragonflight)* Azeroth before the Titans was JUST Ny'alotha, and it looks a hell of a lot like Zereth Mortis but purple void tinted… remember that other 'Zereth' the Titans found… you know, the same Titans who put 'not quite mind control' water in the dragons birthing pools (and likely the Moonwell, BTW, just sayin'). I'm backing Nozdormu on this, if he goes in to discover some great truth in Neltharion's Vault and 'goes crazy'… maybe he's actually just pissed he was used. I would be, and I'd plot to bring them all down.
'I will say this as well, wow was ah ah hook for next one, behold the next big bad. FF14 was, no this is the end this chapter closes, lets open the book on a new chapter after this. that was a big difference as well.
the dark forest depressed me, the third one made me angry
Damn you Jessy Cox for making me cry! But yeah, Endwalker, was the story of my journey. When Zenos ask in the very last battle : "Why do you do it? Admit that you like the challenge." I couldn't hate Zenos anymore. I hated this character for so long… But as those words were said, I understood that it was the Devs talking to me… they were saying : Why did you spent months proging UCoB years after this fight was released? You don't need to win that fight to save the world? It's a story told by a bard… The answer is because I, the player, am exactly like Zenos.
The Old One comes. All shall be devoured & returned to nothingness as it once was before The First arrived. The way has been opened.
Not gonna lie going over this video as two games I really love, almost brought a tear to my eye.
First of all, the "sound" didnt come from the sky but the earth. Which… I know, muddles up your narrative 😛
Second. How could the WoW story in general be fixed? By writers and devs who make it a priority instead of a background for a background for a background. The way story is treated in WoW… it doesnt deserve to be called a "story" to begin with. Its illogical and disconnected, and in the end you get told "ah yeah, everything that was fact, forget it, it was the wrong perspective". Of course you can expand the known lore, of course you should uncover new secrets, even if they go against established lore – simply because we discover new truths going foreward. But execution in WoW is abyssmal, and they dont treat story the way it should be: a framework to explain the "why" and "how" of the game instead of an annoying backdrop. It doesnt even have to be as masterfully done as in FF14, just take a look at GW1 and GW2: decent stories, that make sense and make you care. So yeah, as long as story doesnt get to be what its supposed to be, WoW will always be that game were players actively avoid everything related to "story" to the point that they expect every game to be like that.
And thirdly, whooo boy, thinking in tropes would kinda ruin the fun for me ^^°
The Endsinger is a character. You understand her motivations, there may even have been a time in your life when you would agree with her. And maybe, like me, you want to overcome that time of despair. In a meta narrative the Endsinger is the personification of our collective depression and despair. It's COVID, it's climate change and it is the earthquake that hit Japan, caused major flooding and one of the greatest catastrophes Japan has ever faced. Beating her is overcoming your own despair, and while I'm not saying it's a cure for depression, it sure was carthatic and therapeutic for me. And satisfying.
Outstanding essay, your version of WoW's shadowlands was exactly what would have hyped my ass to the moon for the next expansion and beyond. I hope someone at blizz watches this and takes notes.
All tropes are just tools; some are easy to use, some hard. FF14 showed us how you can use even the most old and tough to pull off tropes and use them well by using them to support the theme.
I think you would actually really enjoy FFIX then, Jesse! The entire ending of Endwalker reminds me so much about FFIX, even the name of the final quest is a reference to a song from that very game.
Destiny 2 just doing the same trope. the expansion isnt even out yet and i know
I had an idea to improve shadowlands, and it would revolve around zoval, and actually making him a character we interact with. First, get rid of the weird robot lady arbiter, it literally did NOTHING narrative wise during the ENTIRE expansion, it was literally useless in all regards. What I would do is make zoval the arbiter that we meet, change his design to that concept of him before he fell and just make him never fall. Instead, he continues to act like the faithfully, and maybe even a wise and friendly arbiter that helps you on your quests to find Sylvanias, how we find is working with some mysterious character called "the Jailer" that works from out of the maw, and that the coven leaders have no clue about. The primus goes to investigate "the jailer" with the help of his old friend and leader Zoval the arbiter, but goes missing, and "greaved" by his friends loss, he appoints Denathrius more power to help them find the primus and deal with the threat. You can probably see the big twist here, Zoval, using his position as arbiter to build an army in secret, and manipulate all the events we know to ultimately undo the first one's plans. It could have been a mid expansion twist, him keeping us in the dark and secretly manipulating us to focus on danathrius and the anima drought while he made plans to steal the Covent sigils, 9.1 we could still be in the dark, the narrative focusing on chasing Sylvanus until, at the end of the 9.1 one raid, Zoval shows up and reveals himself as the "the Jailer." For character, I wouldn't make him moustache twirling evil, instead, I'd make his demeanor similar to thanos, someone who deeply regrets what he's done and about to do, but feels a true conviction that the first one's plans need to be stopped, at any price. When we meet him and he first creates this façade, he could seem like a tired, mournful soul, genuinely saddened by the pain the actions of the jailer have on the shadowlands, but hiding that he's the one causing them. This version of Zoval also has the added benefit by actually putting him in a position to look as manipulative as he's suppose to be, it would make a LOT more sense that Zoval could miniplate so many important powers an people in the cosmos if he held a position in death equal to someone like amon'thul, rather than some guy that was exiled and chained in pre-historic ages. In fact, so much of Zoval's character and the story in general suffers from making him this Satan allegory, especially since wow already HAD a Satan allegory in Sargaras, but no, the new writing team wanted their own "afterlives" edition.
that idea for the shadowlands final boss would have been so epic. could even somehow get illidan in there somewhere somehow, for me personally, i would have had sylvanas do something to allow the player to have the quintessential final blow on the Jailer, or at least have her involved in that moment.
Man whenever you talk about MMO stories and only bring up FF and WoW I get sad. I really wish you'd do a playthrough of the Guild Wars 2 story. It's a quite story-heavy MMO with lots of good stuff in there! Not quite as story heavy as FF, and it has its own problems as well. The story and lore isn't always given in big dialogue dumps and 30min cutscenes, but it has a more story focus than WoW.
my god that dragon is ugly animated. Honestly i am no fan of either wow's end story, nor FF14's end story, i feel they are way to predictable, and it for me ruins the joy of it.
Banger storyline for the final fight. Having a callback to the fight against Archimonde with wisps showing up, and even Hellscreem fighting (for the wrong reasons obviously) would be fun.
Rather than comparing jailer vs endsinger, i'd like to compare 2 similar tropes within FFXIV itself: the writing of ARR vs that of ShB. Both plots at the foundation are about defeating a series of bosses in succession (Primals and Lightwardens), only for a final boss to emerge in the last act (Gaius and Emet) to be confronted. Resident Evil Village did it with the 4 lords leading up to Mother Miranda, Bayonetta 3 did it with Singularity's various vessels prior to the last battle with Singularity itself, it's a common trope.
Yet ShB's writing has far more acclaim that ARR, because ShB made you care about the scions, made you experience what it was like to struggle to survive in a dying, hopeless world, and yes even made you sympathise with its villain (I dont think its controversial to say ShB Emet beats ARR gaius in character writing). ShB was simply written better.
Which brings us to the topic. Jailer was badly written. Even without being compared to other similar villains in other games, when judged in a vacuum, it STILL looks badly written. It's so bad that even people who only play WoW and have no other reference point like GW2 or FFXIV can see how bad it is, and aren't shy about calling it out.
Jesse I can NOT forgive you for cutting the Endsinger second phase before the best part started. All jokes aside, great comparison of the thematic differences between both expansions. It really highlights the differences WoW and XIV have in involving the player character in the story, WoW tried it out in WoD and Legion and quickly backpedaled after its story was reaching Endwalker levels.