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Primary Sources:
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Wanted to stop by and slap an addendum of sorts for the audience, but first things first, thank you, @SynodicScribe, for the shoutout! I appreciate your taking the time to publish this work and start these critical conversations.
I want people to know that 1.0 was never removed from the canon. People who weren't there might not know the story details, and that's fine. It shouldn't be expected. But to say it doesn't matter is ignoring far too much in the current story directly derived from the 1.0 plot and elements. There are so many references to details from the original game and entire questlines that act as closures for those stories; it's the only reason I mentioned to the OP about the potential retcon because up until last Tuesday, it was known that Louisoix was the source of the Marks.
I'm looking forward to seeing how Thalia (potential name of the last instance following their Three Graces naming convention) will allow both the idea the Twelve made the Marks that got confused for objects of worship and how Louisoix made them. If they allowed a mention of Louisoix in the concluding quest arc, it'd tidy it up, and we won't have to consider it retcon. Because additional information is still deemed a retcon (additive retcons are better for long-term narrative, the MMO nature of the game means they have to change things over time), however, they do it so well with many things that I prefer that over omitting past context and details entirely.
That's mainly from my personal narrative criticism; I want them to remember Louisoix's significant contribution to the power of the Twelve in the first place. They've yet to mention it, making me hopeful for an excellent conclusion that will bring it up, but for now, it's up in the air. Excluding the NieR alliance raid since that's a different narrative method, the narrative team tends to finish off the alliance raids in neat packages that answer all our questions, usually before the next expansion.
I don't want to talk about dynamis here because it'll make the comment longer 😂.
TL;DR: many people from 1.0 legacy + anyone who read up on the quest Living on a Prayer knew Louisoix mentions himself as the architect of the Marks. Many of us in the lore community would like to see them connect it somehow with the eternal stone concept mentioned after the raid.
Add: Be nice, it's okay to disagree over lore topics, but we need to do better with the nature of the discussion, some of you here trying to suggest you know better are not being mindful of your words, and that's not okay.
I want to counterpoint a little. Do we know the watcher is the 13th(yes the unnamed makes them the 13 now) diety? Has he admitted it? I believe our friend Deryk is the 13th God. I believe the gods are representing Venat's allies, and Deryk represents Azem(us). Deryk follows the rules the gods have(even berating himself for "influencing" 2 mortals. He has an animal counterpart (opo-opo). He even acknowledges he will "leave eventually". So I'm not convinced the watcher is part of the 13.
As for the retcon… How many have access to 1.0 history? Not even Yoshi P. Was on the original story team. I think it was forgotten.
My thought process of the twelves challenging us is that, we literally beat the will of the star so to fighting them seem already tooooo obvious, we are definitely capable xD
I think there is also an additional plot hole/ puddle. When we first meet the gods they state that they aren't primals. Though when I was replaying ARR . There is a scene in little Ala mhigo, where the ascians tried to convince the people to summon rhalgr, as a primal. But if that's the case shouldn't the ascian have known that the summoning is technically impossible?
If something is untrue, it isn't necessarily a lie. "Lie" suggests intent, and a person can be mistaken about something without meaning to deceive anyone about it.
Dynamis is the worst thing in the entire plot and they need to stop mentioning it before it ruins the entire story. It's a lazy and poorly thought out writting crutch and I hate it.
with all due respect, i wouldnt consider 1.0 into the current lore we got since 2.0….it feels like applying assasin's creed to skyrim
Honestly, the actions of the Twelve match those of a giddy child who's just met a long lost friend after they came out of a coma. Their actions very much match up with those who are wanting to play with people that can take it and want to share the whole truth, but that said truth requires some preparation and a strong will to endure it. If their gambit fails, then they got to play with the chosen of Hydaelin. If the plan succeeds, then their vigil no longer needs be a lonely one and they could potentially walk alongside mortals, knowing that we can handle it.
It's quite difficult to say, though, and this is merely speculation.
Doesn't the Endsinger call out the limit break as dynamis though? I don't think it necessarily NEEDS a lot of people to use it, just a strong force of emotion. They basically canonized shounen moments. Could always be wrong, but that's how I saw it.
(spoilers, obviously)
I think we're going to end up finding out that, upon creation, Hydaelyn gave each of the 12 a prime directive of sorts, that one day man would grow not to need them, and that they would know when that time came (that being when she is gone) and that they should issue us a challenge to determine our fitness at that time. Hydaelyn being previously Venat, knowing of the Final Days and of our time in Elpis, would know what was to come to pass and that at some point our WoL would come along and she would put them to ultimate test of will. If we'd failed, we would have fled the Star and the 12 no longer would have mattered anyway; but succeed, and she knew she would fight us, and that in our success her work would be finished, and indeed a new age, one where we not only no longer had her guidance, but also needed not the guidance of any deity, would come. The Gods say things like, "This, too, is fate." when we win. I surmise that just like she put us to the test of defeating her to prove our strength, will, and resolve, she gave them the directive to put us to a similar test to determine if man is fit to govern himself without any gods at all. Fail, and they will become our rulers supreme until such time as we are fit to rule ourselves. Win, and I suppose that they will either dissipate completely, or take a backseat to the rule of man, where they continue to act as figure-heads and protectors, but in a diminished capacity. Because much like The Watcher, their original purpose would be fulfilled.
I will be Honest Synodic. Most of the retcons originate from 1.0. So far I have yet to see a retcon that is from ARR for closer. Remember the White Raven, that was a complete mess
Found my way here due to @The Essalim Collate. Will be giving this video a watch.
#uncloudilsabard
Hate to be that guy, but the stones being created by Louisoix was retconned long ago, as far back as 2015. I don't expect everyone to know this however, as in order to access this lore, you need to do the most arduous task in any MMO ever… Get married. Yes the way I word that is a joke, but I am dead serious about getting married.
There is a quest that leads up to actually arranging the wedding called "The Ties That Bind." In it, you make a ring for your lover using two of the Flawless Band items, one for each of you- and then you travel with them to the different points of The Twelve. It's even said in this quest that the reason you're doing this in the first place, is because of a tradition that dates very far back- as far back as the Second Umbral Era if memory serves me right.
To sum up the story of the quest as best I can- (It's been about a year since I've played it, apologies,) the quest is about following in two people's footsteps so you can go on the same journey they did, and learn about it in the process. At each stone, they ask the Twelve what the meaning of life is, and each one tells them that they cannot answer that. At the end of the journey, when they reach the twelfth one, they essentially say that they can't answer the question of "what is the reason of life?" but that the two found that meaning in themselves. It's a very charming little quest that understandably, not many people will ever really play.
But yeah, this was retconned, just MUCH earlier. The alliance raid just brought it to more people's attention.
I'll admit, I'm no where near as versed on 1.0 lore as those here clearly are, but I guess on some level I do understand the need for a retcon; if that is what this is. Largely due to a point made earlier in the video. That Louisoix created these stones as rallying points for the Faith of the Twelves devout to summon primals, in lands that would already have such rallying points long established and revered seems very strange in concept. Even Old Sharlayan has such locals. Because as you said, that sort of change (dynamis or no) takes "Collective Faith" and "Time". Neither of which these stones would have, being prayed to by a handful of adventurers he sent there way, if they were "newly" formed constructs of his own making. Whereas had these stones had long established associations with the Twelve, then the faith he would attempt to channel from them for his Primal Summoning would make more sense; over him just not using already pre-existing places of reverence instead.
Thus, Louisoix being the creators of those stones as whole doesn't even make sense within the confines of his own 1.0 plan. Him. conversely, going around and placing or REplacing clear visual indicators on these timeworn locals that already had long established associations with the 12 does. Because even with someone of his notoriety within his relatively short time in Eorzea, even Louisoix didn't have the power to generate collective faith out of nowhere. There had to be something there first.
The Red Mage doesn't need to know what everyone else's Limit Break looks like, they just need to know to NEVER TOUCH THAT BUTTON AGAIN, MY EYES!
I would note that Louisoix doesn't say he created the stones, he says that he "manifested the divine symbols" at places where "they lie in slumber". This could mean that the stones were already there and imbued with the 12's aether, and that Louisoix could have just tapped in to that in creating the symbols.
I find that there's a much more interesting line about those marks that you didn't touch on. Specifically, Halone says that the stones' purpose remains eternal no matter their shape and location. That REALLY stood out to me when making my lore review for this content.
To me that sounds like those things are more than just rocks with inscriptions. They're something much weirder, and possibly in some way self-intelligent and self-acting to fulfill their purpose. It would explain why the mark of Byregot for example moved from the now-inaccessible West Shroud despite REALLY not looking very mobile; it itself moved from its inaccessible previous location to its new one, because it'd be doing no good in an abandoned wilderness. But that angle also explains the Louisoix angle: it's not that he made the Marks and they didn't exist before, but rather that he made these stones into the Marks, perhaps-intentionally turning them into these immortal monuments. They changed shape and location at Louisoix's behest and hand, but in an abstract sense were not created by him.
So wait, if Limit Breaks aren't Dynamis, why does the Endsinger, a being made of it, call out our tank LB as Dynamis? 😛 Doesn't seem like a thing she'd be mistaken about.
Just wanted to say I’ve really enjoyed all the lore videos and never commented so here 🙂 thanks for making them. That’s all
I think it's possible that Althyk created the stones through Louisoix. If I remember correctly he did not say at which point in time he created them, so maybe it was shortly before the calamity.
I have the theory, that Deryk is either Oschon, because he's wandering around restlessly, or the Nameless One, because he keeps distance and watches. Either way, he talks like the Twelve in the way he says he will not go against the will of mortals (and monkeys for that matter) and will disappear once this is over.
It's interesting to think, that we only get access to Omphalos, once Deryk appears. I suppose one can only enter with the help of a deity. Yes, the Twelve wanted to meet and fight us, but Deryk was the one to show us when and where and to get us there.
I have a few possibilities for the seeming contradiction in the lore of the twelvestones.
1) If I recall correctly, Althyk mentions that their eternal stones have changed form over the ages, but have been everpresent. It is possible that referring to them as "eternal stones" simply refers to the form they take today, or is a metaphorical name, and what he refers to is more metaphysical, and became present in the twelvestones when Louisoix carved their symbols into appropriate locations.
2) Louisoix may have been unknowingly guided by the twelve to carve their symbols into the locations where they are found. As the location of their eternal stones, those who would pray at them would have the strongest connection with their god, and empower Louisoix's summoning even further.
3) Louisoix may have, in his own research and wandering, figured out that those stones had special connections to the gods innately, and marked them with their symbols.
4) Louisoix may only be telling a half-truth. He may have carved the symbols into them, but found some way to entreat the gods directly, receiving this plan from them, along with the location of their stones.
It absolutely nowhere in 6.3 stated that the watcher is confirmed as the 13th. That is just our current operating theory, and more than likely wrong. The 13th is Deryk or the Opo-opo. Bet on it.
The amount of lore discussion going on in the comments are fucking amazing.
What I was excited to find was the origin of the Gridanian Goldsmith so now we know where he came from but his fate is still unknown
I may not be remembering exactly… but did the gods say the stones were ALWAYS there or that they will always exist in some form? It's possible the stones could've been destroyed with each calamity, and someone was inspired to make them again after each era was over.
Well, even if the creation myth for Althyk and Nymeia is written in a greek mythology way. The fact is that Maria and Alkaios were indeed siblings in Elpis and were the ancients that Venat used to model Nymeia and Althyk.
In its entirety the creation myth is false, but that's because it's fiction. Some of it is indeed true, which means that the relationship and potentially some of the events of the story are true. The text was decorated to appear more like a mythological text about the creation of the gods, just like how the greek mythology was written by ancient greeks.
For sure still a retcon but a way to salvage it a bit I think would be for Louisoix to have carved the symbols on the stones but the stones themselves were still made by Althyk. You could say that the stones were chosen because of their already existing connection to the 12, so carving them there would have been the best place for them. Still retcon but seems a better Idea then just, we forgot, they might have still forgotten though.
Can't the retcon you mention about the stones just be that Althyk is working through Louisoux?
Why else would he give Althyk so much trust when attempting to use his time magic on the warriors of light in Carteneau to save them?
He probably had a deep connection to him.
You shouldn't take the words of people as fact when creating theories, unless you can back up Louisoux's words.
The same can be said about how the fundamental rules of aether, dynamis, elemental aspects, the lifestream, stars, the void and memories.
Whatever Eorzea believes how these entities work, for example what is written in Sharlayan books or by their scholars, it will only be based on their understanding.
If SE writers explain in future how some of these fundamental rules act in specific quests, and this contradicts to the common understanding, it is NOT retconning.
It is not retconning, because it only means that the collective knowledge of Eorzea is incomplete and that they were wrong.
Didn't the "gods" stat that those stones may change form, their function will stay the same? Maybe Louisoix noticed their connection to the 12 and just changed the appearance of the stones.
Also, YES there where some BIG plot holes in the XIV story. Like you could do the Lv50 CUL quest while Princess was "dead" and yet she'd show up to taste test your food. Or after Zenos attacked 'Shtola, you could still continue the Warring Triad quests with 'Shtola appearing in them (same for Alexanders questline).
8:20 Just curious, how did you come to the conclusion that our limit breaks are aetheric in nature when the endsinger reacts to the tank LB3 to survive the first oblivion with "Dynamis?"
Keep up the awesome work on these lore videos!
they just want to further test our reflexes
oef, could a fix.
be that there signs faded over time and Louisoix felt a power in them so incidentally drawn the signs back on for his own goal?