Quazii reaction to FF114 players trying out dungeons in World of Warcraft Dragonflight, and missing the friendly environment in Final Fantasy XIV.
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Tanking is important in wow. If you have a undergeared and unknowledgable tank he'll kill a raid non stop. That's just not fun.
Ff14 community is most nasty in savage and ultimate raiding. Dungeons in ffxiv are a jokr so no one takes it seriously.
I was a Druid tank in WoW back when it was broken, if you switched back & forth between bear & cat you'd be max dps in your party. And I tanked as a Pally in the first 2.5 years of FFXIV. Never saw anyone toxic, everyone knew how to play both games.
If you like this topic I would recommend watching "Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft" from Folding Ideas (same guy who made the famous anti-NFT video.) It explains how and why the WoW community has degenerated to this level, and how the community ruined classic. It was interesting to watch as a FFXIV player because the game dodges a lot of these issues, but not all of them. I quit WoW in WoD and the things I didn't like about WoW seem to have only gotten worse. Already in Mists of Pandaria I refused to do LFR on tank because people were so rude if you failed or hadn't watched the tankspot guide.
This is why WoW didn't last for me. My very first dungeon in WoW someone said "Oh no. A new player. Can we get this over with already and just kick him for wasting our time?" Yeeeeah like I want to play that game.
I tanked in WoW from 2004 until 2015
I tanked in FF14 from 2015 until 2017
I switched to Healer in FF as I needed a new role. At the end of BFA and SL Release I tried WoW again, played my DK Tank up to +12 but did not like that Tanks hold like 70% of the responsibility in M+. Such a bad Game Design. I stopped after 1 month in SL and continued playing White Mage and Dancer in FF.
I've picked up wow again for the first time since MoP and this is the thing that has me the most reluctant. I know i'd want to do endgame stuff but I don't have a crew of people I know to play with and get the strong feeling that it'd be a dumpster fire becuase the community feels from someone who used to be inside and is now back on the outside incredibly isolated. they don't want to take in new players becuase they don't want them to drag them down/make their play less efficient.
Actually, the toxic behaviour of the community in WoW made the step to stop playing the game quite easy tbh. Read through some comments here, and #metoo was flamed in Raids and Dungons as a Tank or DPS for whatever reason. Where is the Fun of playing a game, that is new and all, but you are recomended .. or rather you MUST watch guides and stuff for Bosses and such before you can experience them for the first time? ..
But, well.. Raids are time sinks anyway.. SH Castle Nathria .. 2 Months raiding without ONE SINGLE Item dropping for my class. Speaking about wasting someones time….
This is exactly what I discussed with my cuz on Thanksgiving. We both agreed that WOW was just so toxic compared to ff,and it killed the fun of just running a dungeon like in roulette
I've not played WoW for 2 years until Dragonflight but had no problems in dungeons at all or the world content, had a dungeon where the group died 7/8 times on a last boss in m0 and nobody cared. But I do expect this to change with M+ where people end up going to try hard with pathing.
I haven’t gone back to wow but my days since I started raiding back in Wrath all those years ago pugs were toxic because dps checks rather than help I was a mage before I switched to main death knight no one gave me tips as a mage. When I started playing FfXIV as a black mage people gave me tips to do dps without being a asshole way about it and help me learned even then as reaper (yeah death knight main then reaper main I love me edgey boy classes)pugs are very rarely toxic there is some but only once in a blue moon compared to wow where toxic is commonly found in anything needs be grouped content.
One of my buds trying out DF had a lovely "welcome to WoW" moment where his group wiped early on, someone threw out insults and slurs, and then left. This was like two days after launch during a leveling dungeon.
i think a huge issue with the toxicity in wow is that the game itself fosters it on a fundamental lvl. take M+ for example. the timer, if u don't make the timer, you get a downgrade on your M+ key and get less loot than you would have if you timed said key. in turn it fosters this kind of toxicity to an extreme level and gets worse the higher/harder the key. and the affixes for M+ dungeons don't help the case and make it even worse.
i also mained a dk/prot pally tank for yrs in wow so i know this toxicity all too well. and it just gets to be too much specially on new players trying to learn the game. and with all this toxicity over stupid/simple things, it discourages people from even trying much less learning about pve content and they wind up giving up and moving on to another game.
i tried to get back into wow with DF, but after about a week, i just can't anymore. after playing FF14 for the past 2 yrs myself, it's just too much for me now. did my first M+ in yrs since i last played wow, and instantly got flamed for not knowing the routes/fights the MOMENT the game went live. it's like the players aren't even allowed to learn the dungeons/raids/fights anymore in wow.
maybe its just I've gotten older, but after everything the players went through with all the mandatory bs over recent yrs which has also fostered said toxicity, i think its so ingrained in the player base, that it would take a while for them to deprogram, if its even possible at all.
A few observations/reactions to this video:
– As you said, dungeons in WoW and those in FFXIV can't realistically be compared. A much more reasonable comparison would be between WoW dungeons and PF raiding, IMO. Given this comparison, I'm pretty sure that XIV's community would still be substantially less douchetacular (largely out of fear of retribution), but that's a bit like saying "well, I think you're a better person than your average dictator…" :p
– Even the above comparison would have some significant flaws. Unless something has changed in the last few years, there's effectively a much harsher penalty for failure in M+ than just getting sent back to the start like in (most of) XIV's high-end content. The learning curve in M+ is also extremely steep for tanks specifically (having to know all the routes and pulls, as WoW's dungeons are a lot less linear than any XIV content). Combine these points with people who are more emboldened to openly be dickbags and it's, well, not great.
– For the record (to beat the ol' dead horse some more), I strongly disagree with people pointing to WoW as an example of "why DPS meters shouldn't be publicly allowed". Assholes are going to be assholes regardless of whether they have a numerical """justification""". Maybe some people would be emboldened, but they'd be slapped down pretty fast.
TLDR: IMO the community difference is mostly a combination of a) the game not being hyper-punishing in terms of the consequences and wipes, and b) actual moderation.
Sorry, this came out way longer than I intended, I guess it's a bit of a rant at this point.
I've been a Holy Paladin since vanilla, before Holy Paladins were even viable as healers. I never really felt the need to try out other classes in dungeon or raid settings as I'd make an alt, play it for a bit, have some fun, but always go back to my Paladin. To me, switching characters has always just felt weird to me in MMOs because I like to think of my singular character as "me" in the game world, that and doing all the boring quests again makes my brain angry.
Anyway, all that to say I thought I'd try something different with Dragonflight. I dunno how long I'll play since I've always been a fairweather WoW player at best, and the last 2 expansions have really made me feel disconnected from my Paladin in multiple ways, including it feeling slow, and the lack of any kind of character skill expression especially in PvP. Someone else could use a knockback to throw me off a cliff and I'm just boned. My only movement tool is a stupid looking horse summon and my battlefield control is like… a stun. The most boring (though efficient) kind of crowd control.
So I started an Evoker. I didn't really want to play as a weird Disney dragon (my visage form looks worse, I tried to make an old man but he looks like a baby with an old man filter) but it was too tempting; being able to double jump glide meant basically a permanent movement speed increase, no fear of fall damage, able to gain distance when I'm at an elevated position, and more easily avoid attacks in general. The hover ability meant I'd have an even faster burst of speed on a short cooldown and I could even cast while moving. I'd have two separate knockbacks (well, one knockback, one knock-upward, with slow) a mini counterspell, an attack that could move me a great distance quickly while dealing decent damage AND the option to teleport back to where I started, plus a very interesting set of healing tools that appeared to focus less on repeating bread-and-butter hardcasts and focus more on utilizing a suite of neat cooldowns I'd have to think about and could creatively use in conjunction with each other, just a ton of skill and creativity expression in just the base kit.
In other words, this was exactly my kind of shit. Just a playstyle that I think fit the kind of player I've tried to become over the years but that Holy Paladin simply wasn't giving me.
Unfortunately, due to my fairweather tendencies, I tend to log back in a year or two later with no guild. I don't blame anyone, gotta keep the roster clean. But that combined with my dwindling friend list of people who no longer want to play WoW means I generally start from scratch.
Which brings us to my first dragonflight dungeon, two nights ago. I'm well aware WoW players like to run their dungeon in depressing, abject silence and look down upon human communication, but I still tried to open with something akin to "Hi, this is my first time healing with this class and I'm still getting used to my hotkeys and cooldowns, I hope I don't suck." No one replies or says anything at all. For the entire dungeon. Not good, but not bad, I've had people call me an asshole for saying hello before so this isn't disconcerting.
The problem is it was like a level 62-64 dungeon (sorry, don't know the name, the one where you're protecting the eggs I think?) and our tank was level 70 and of course just ran in and pulled everything instantly without ever slowing down for any reason, even when people died.
This is fine, I guess? I mean he was never in any real danger, but it made for a really uncomfortable dungeon as I'd only just set up my healing addon prior to the dungeon which of course is hard to test on just yourself and is best tested in dungeons, meaning I immediately forgot a bunch of spells and their names because I'd been playing the character for only a few hours. To top it all off, some of the Evoker heals are better used just directly with hotkeys rather than cast on a player, so I'm trying to memorize which are best like that and which are best to cast on players, trying to figure out which heals are effective and my "core" spells (you do not really learn how to heal with any class properly in solo play, what works well solo often falls apart immediately in a group) and which sounded good on the talent tree vs which actually appear to be doing a good job keeping the group alive.
Yeah yeah, I could go look up someone's exact talent tree setup, watch videos on "how to heal as evoker" and look up a guide for a fuckin' normal dungeon, but I'd rather just not play the game than be guided by the hand every step of the way like that. I think it's a lot more fun and valuable to get experience with your character and THEN use those resources, because then you'll understand why the choices they made might make more sense than yours, or see that something actually conflicts with your play style or skill level (a top-tier player might be able to use a certain ability very well, but maybe a mid-tier player would be better off with a different choice if they can't be as consistent) and I think that just makes it all more fun.
Anyway, it all went better than expected. A few people died at the start when the "Shit, what buttons did I just set up" panic set in, but over the course of the dungeon I was able to get a firmer and firmer grasp on my post powerful abilities and how to exploit them, and by the end while I'm sure I still sucked ass, I was able to keep everyone alive through plenty of AOE damage while effortlessly dodging/casting thanks to the amazing hover ability, which is probably my sleeper favorite.
So great success, right? I kinda sucked to start with, but came out okay in the end. Well the thing is, it was still terrifically uncomfortable due to the unrelenting silence, it just makes the dungeon feel so fucking dead and sterile. And while I THINK I was doing okay by the end, I have no evidence or feedback that I actually was, and now I think about queueing up for the next dungeon and just don't want to find out I'm healing like an idiot and ruining the fun and/or being yelled at by some randos. It's not that I'll get my feelings hurt, because… who cares? Just random angry folks on WoW. I've been called way worse than anything I'd be called for a failed dungeon. But it's mentally exhausting compared to the relative ease and joy of leveling and just flying around collecting glyphs and getting gold in races. It feels like such a weird disconnect in design philosophies.
And it's not like I'm not aware of the expected "etiquette," if you can call it that, you look up absolutely everything and find the most efficient everything and do all your world quests and finish your tasks and blah blah blah, but I absolutely don't want to do that, at least not yet, not while it's still fresh and fun. That's the part that always starts to drain me and push me away from the game, the part that's not interesting, just someone else pointing at shit and telling you to both do it, and exactly how to do it, which is the exact opposite of what I play video games for.
Honestly I wish there was a first time queue option or even something like FFXIV's trust system so I could run it with NPCs and just practice getting good at healing on my own terms. There's target dummies every 10 feet but I want friendly dungeon and raid dummies I can add to a fake party.
as someone who played both wow and ff14, i think the biggest reason ppl arent toxic in ff14 is because the GM will actually do sth about toxicity reports so ppl are hesitant to call out someone in dungeons/raids, as compared to wow. difficulty is a factor but not as huge as the player report system, at least thats what my circle of ff14 gamer friends told me too
If difficulty leads to toxicity then keep FF14 'carebear' forever. I quit wow for a reason. I don't need that mentality infecting ff14.
I played Wow for years and FF 14 for 4 years now and I am proud of the game and FF community. Finally found my RPG home
All they need to do to spice up the trash mobs is stick a single mechanic in the fight (or a set of them) to spice it up so it's a bit more interesting in the trash section.
Back in ARR, HW, and a bit into SB, there used to be two dungeons that released with each mainline patch. I miss those days, because it helped make expert rou more interesting with additonal dungeons. Having a dungeon based exploration quest line that was a bit harder than MSQ would help with the variety aspect because (IMO) that's something that FFXIV is really lacking on atm and it's making the expert rou painful to run because I have both instances basically committed to memory atm.
I don't get the "false positivity" argument when it comes to the ff14 moderation (the idea that people are only nice because if they are mean they could get punished).
if someone is being a dick in a public place, like a grocery store, they get kicked out, and we don't think "wow, fuck this store's stupid false positivity" we think "good, that guy was a bitch" and ff14 IS a public space, everyone is paying to be there and have to share it.
While I would appreciate more patience in wows community, I do not want ff14’s elitist community. What I mean is that ff14 players, especially the elitists who are always doing Ultimates and Savage and think it’s easy, are incapable of taking any form of criticism when it comes to anything in the game. Whereas in WoW everyone is always critical of the game and pushing for improvement at every opportunity. Ff14 communities priorities are not set straight, the only time I’ve heard them be vocally upset was about grass textures and low poly fruit… are you kidding me. Oh and the glamour system, how long has the community been yelling into the void for? 10 years? The games very engine is ancient and needs to be upgraded eventually. Everytime you hear a veteran talk about the games code you hear “Spaghetti code”. Perhaps it’s time for a new final fantasy mmo?
I really don't think we need to dance around this topic due to not wanting to offend people. It's also like that logical fallacy that the truth between two options is always in the middle, some MMO communities are just broadly horrible, no sugar coating it.
I've played a lot of MMOs and its pretty clear which communities are horrific and which are not and its almost always one or both of two things: community norms and GM enforcement and the strength of these is a straight inverse relationship to toxicity.
WoW isn't even the worst MMO, the constant stream of mental vomit you see in BDO chat would leave most WoW players speechless, there's no norms and no policing there. Norms can also work as well as policing, when original Aion came out the community was very chill because of just sheer happenstance the community was a troll-intolerant group. If you were awful you didn't get into guilds which were mandatory to do good content or you got PK'd into submission.
Just stay away from forums 🙂
Toxicity difference has nothing to do with add-ons like ACT not being allowed but with the report system in both game works. You can get banned really easily in Ff14 If a player gets a bit offended by your commentary on how he plays, which is not the case in Wow. I think it tends to create players that don't give a damn about how to play better sometimes and never improve, which is a problem since you have to play with this type of players in your daily duty roulette but at least, the majority of people who are willing to learn don't get flamed. I think things could be different in wow if they were to put more ressources into their report system and how they handle such toxicity. I also think people have a wrong idea about how Ff14 actually is, because in Wow they try to tackle hard content but they don't do it in FF. So yeah, expectations are not the same.
I remember when I tried WoW back in Legion because a friend, who played it since launch, wanted me and our group of friends to play with him. This wasnt my first trying WoW, so when we did a dungeon together+1 random, I already knew what was gonna happen to my tank friend. He was new and trying things so I guessed it offended the rando cuz the guy said my friend gave him cancer. We had a good laugh from that in voice along with how the guy tried to convince us in pm to votekick said friend which we did to troll, then left the dungeon too lol. This wasnt anything endgame just a random dungeon we did while lvling.
i've only been kicked once in ff14 and it was a false kick in a year and a half of playtime. false kicks happen regularly in WoW even if you're playing good like almost a weekly thing
never met anyone toxic or maybe it's a US thing at worst ppl leave but that's about all. maybe they say something but 99% of the time it's about 'hey you shouldn't pull that pack' wiped quite a few time with over confident tanks and nobody said anything.
The very last interaction I had in WoW before leaving it after 16 years was a Mythic+ that blew up almost instantly after some miscommunication. The game is a fucking cesspool of degenerate cunts. Seeing what the developers had let the game become disgusts me almost as much as the developers themselves. The devs don't give a shit so why should the players? Every day, I am more amazed at how much better FFXIV is compared to WoW. FFXIV legit changed my life. Playing from ARR to Endwalker was a goddamned magical experience. Love this game, the community, the devs . . . Everything is just PERFECT.
I don't think it's just FFXIV punishing toxicity more. FFXIV also uses the carrot instead of stick approach, by rewarding good behavior. But even though I played WOW for over 11 years, I am not going back for Dragonflight. Blizzard burned all their bridges with me, to the point that I consider giving them money to be immoral. So even IF Dragonflight is good…nope, not playing it. As far as FFXIV, I am not currently subscribed, but that's only because I'm working on a backlog of single player games (Spider-Man right now). I am pretty much done with the MMO stuff…WOW burned me out. I play FFXIV like a single player game…get to the end of the story, take a break. FFXIV has had some new stuff that I will come back to see, I just don't feel like jumping in right now. I do not like doing the endgame MMO grind anymore (even a daily roulette is more than I want to do now). For the record, I have zero issues with FFXIV, it's a very well designed game. It's an "it's not you, it's me" thing…because I don't want to spend money to spend a couple days doing quests only to take another break. I'm not saying FFXIV should even change anything, I think it's pretty perfect as is…I just don't dedicate myself to one game like that anymore.
If there's anything I learned from WoW, whom btw I played the game until WoD fell on its face, that the community really is based on the server. Kirin Tor for example tends to be friendly, some what, but trying to make all of the game more like FFXIV community wise is an unwinnable battle. Toxicity among many servers is almost common place in WoW. I can understand some wanting to detach themselves from that stigma but by this point its to ingrained on some servers. I wish them luck but I think they would have a better chance of trying to move the moon with a toothpick.
I decided to give Wow (the free trial) a try because despite playing FFXIV for about 4 years I was still very curious (I also blame this on South Park). Honestly, from my perspective, WoW would be a really great and fun game if it actually made sense :'D As in, linear story, explaining what the mechanics are (I would just assume what the whirpools on the ground were and had no idea just how huge that attack would be. Just lots of guessing) It felt like a lot like "Here's a sword/staff/whatever-else-is-there, now go kick butt". I got into a dungeon and I honestly had no idea where to go, what to exactly to do beside giving my all in killing the boss, or how to leave the dungeon after I finished it. Just, lots of confusion in general. I don't know if there are video guides to explain stuff for newbies ,however that would have helped me a lot ^^;
Maybe I was just lucky or maybe it was just fellow ffxiv players/other game players who decided to try the game as well (specifically talking about the people in the newcomer's channel) but I didn't actually meet any toxic player (not sure if i can count that one person who laughed at how i died. ngl, it was funny for me too).
However, I still had to drop it ^^; I'm sorry but the grind was a bit too much for me
There's only one difference, the games. One breeds a competitive mindset, one breeds a casual mindset. This is not debatable imo and I've played both games and have experience.
People don't want to waste time in a 0 or a key with a tank who has no clue what they're doing. And at a certain point, going into a 0 or key without running normals and heros to learn the dungeons, you ARE wasting everyone elses time. If randoms getting mad at you for wasting their time is upsetting to you, go find other like minded people who want to learn or take it slow with you.
Watch, if they add any kind of competitive dungeon mode like M+ for ffxiv, you will see the same thing happen there. It breeds a meta mindset.
Both are toxic in the extremes
I have never seen anyone so unwilling to even learn a proper rotation or basics of the fight as ffxiv players
And also wow is the usual stuff we all complain about
I bought DF last week and having never played WoW, thought I'd give it a go seeing as I'm not taking a break from ff but I don't feel the need to login for hours every day at the moment, so I can flcik between the two pretty casually for a bit. I've honestly found it a bit of a mixed bag. There are aspects thst I like more than I thought I would, such as character creation and the world art. I'm not a fan of the graphics from a character perspective but the world fits the animation style really nicely.
Newcomer chat has actually been quite good. I certainly wouldn't say its worse than NN at this point and I've actually noticed less general game griping and bitching in there than in NN but this could be partly down to the difference in playing time.
I got a druid to level 25 and wanted to make a start on getting to know dungeons and this, along with the pretty isolated levelling experience is sort of pushing me to drop the game at this point. First ever dungeon, I say hi and apologise as its my first ever dungeon and I'm a healer, so….. So nobody says anything, just stsrt pulling, no worries, let's go! Now the problem I ran into is thst I assumed I'd be able to click and target party members and heal but when I was clicking their names in the party list, it didn't work. Ask in chat, nothing, just more silence. So I butcher my way through the first pull, trying to figure out why I keep taking a ton of damage and have to keep switching between healing myself and the rest of the group, none of whom wait or consider this at all. We wipe on what I assume was the first boss/mini boss and one leaves. Still nothing said, we jump back in without waiting for a replacement and because everyone is going at different speeds, we again wipe. The group disband with nothing being said.
I have no problem with getting a bit of grief because I'm holding people back but to just get radio silence is really frustrating, especially when I'm communicating and clearly have an interest in wanting to do the right thing etc. I then had to make a new character because apparently my realm was dead, so my druid that I'd grown quite attached to is now living a lonely existence in the void of a dead server.
There's more I could go into but overall, it doesn't appear very new player friendly. Newcomer chat we're pretty helpful and I did told about a bunch of add ons that I needed which would help, with one being sonething that would allow me to click and target a party member but how on earth is this left to an add on? Totally get quality of life add ons etc but this seems a bit much and as a totay new player, I don't have the current interest to go through all of this just to play. The game isn't yet anywhere near compelling enough for me to jump through so many hoops.
What is compelling enough though is the fact I paid for it. So I'll give it a go still over the next couple of weeks but my initial impressions are that it really doesn't hold a torch to ff in so many ways. Only thing I can really see is that for people who want to level and not bother much with a story etc, you don't have a multi month levelling process to get to end game and I get why that is a more appealing model to some.
I totally think there's room for harder content in XIV, but I agree it should not come at the cost of MSQ or creating a toxic experience. PUG life in WoW is a huge reason I've not rushed into trying DF out yet.
I don't agree that if a dungeon is harder that it will automatically become more toxic
I'm learning tanking in ffxiv. (healer main). I love healing and I love tanking. That is the reason I won't go back to wow. I don't want to dps again and the toxicity that healers and tanks get in wow means I will never play it again.
All I have to say in FF is "Sorry I'm learning". Sure, some people will pull for me (which is actually fine) but not once has someone abused me because I couldn't pick up threat. They accept that I'm learning and wear the cost of pulling for me.
and sometime iwish ff14 was more like wow because seriously a lot of people also have the you dont pay my sub syndrom and they arent trying s minimum(new players i understand better)
Just flame them back. Easy!
You are missing the point when you are comparing expert dungeon difficulty to critereon, just give us harder dungeons w/o super hard difficulty. No expert dungeons are hard ever if you have a team that slightly knows what they're doing. Run them a couple times and you just don't have to pay attention to anything, speaking as a healer main now dps main and healing on my alt only
The unspoken rule of ffxiv. If you see a green sprout in a dungeon/raid you will treat him/her like a Queen/King. 🙌🌱
Still dont agree with making trash mobs harder (they called trash for a reason, i rly couldnt care less about all the fluff inbetween the bosses) Give me challenging bosses yes.
Oh geeze what happened now lol
Isn't it ironic that is sounds like WoW has a much smaller group of people that KNOW and UNDERSTAND mechanics and fights but has much more toxic angry people?
You'd think they'd be more understanding while they're sucking and standing on the fire all the time.
I think the problem also may be to "point" where it is toxic behaviour or flaming or when it is not. I've encountered so many players which said they were flamed and when they showed messages it was like "we died because you didn't do this/stand there" which I don't think it's toxic or flaming tbh.
I met alot of toxic players on aether. On dynamis its been a great community. And when data traveling primal seems to be the troll dc while crystal is very nice like dynamis.. from my observations in 10 months of playing 4 to 10 hours daily always doing roulettes