Quazii responds to a Reddit post: FF14 Dungeons Are Horrible Compared To World of Warcraft.
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Link to Reddit Thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/wua85p/dungeons_are_horrible/
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I’ve not done WoW dungeons, but I can say that personally I find FFXIV dungeons to be fun the first time and after that they lose their value real quick. I hate doing duty roulettes because there is so little going on in dungeons. I mostly just watch youtube or something when I do them because how little effort is needed. They are just hallways where you spam your aoe rotation which is not very satisfying gameplaywise.
To be honest, yeah. The dungeons in ff14 are boring and easy. But thats okay. FF14 has much more to do then wow could ever dream off asides from raids and dungeon stuff.
FFXIV is not for him, he is a WoW Elitist.
using the example of players not understanding mechanics is a bad example, because lower level dungeons are meant to set a precedence on future dungeons. lower levels is where players are meant to learn mechanics, and learn to use their CDs/mitigations/etc. but as we can see with our current low level dungeons is a joke, players literally steamroll through it, healers are LITERALLY optionals, mob's dmg is pathetic. it goes so fast that you don't even get to enjoy the beautiful artistic elements of the dungeon.
if you're gonna argue that it's because the dungeons are used for the main story, while that's true, it's also true that not ALL dungeons are used for the main story. players who want to just get through the story can do so without unlocking many dungeons. Unlockable dungeons could have been made harder and more challenging, instead they are all also just boring and so brain dead that you can fall asleep running your duty roulette. t's just bad design from the get go, i mean it doesn't have to be mythic level difficulty but it should at least prove to be more challenging than it is now.
ALSO now that they are making the story more solo-able, they should be able to separate the current ez-mode version for solo mode and a harder version for group content.By doing this, they can cater to their audience that actually wants to play an MMORPG and not an ORPG.
Most ffxiv players prefer most content to be accessible and low effort. Harder doesn't always equal more fun, and I think making the more punitive content a side dish is a good move. There's a big leap from the more clueless players to the more skilled ones. I had a bard in an EW dungeon yesterday that didn't know how to play their class and it added almost 10 minutes to the clear time. Imagine if the dungeon was actually more challenging as well.
As someone who was there for the transition from nonlinear dungeons to linear in early ARR, they very clearly reacted to the fact that people didn't do dungeons to explore, but to engage with the core story of the dungeon the first time through, and thereafter to seek rewards. In order to make that as painless as possible, we went from the ambling, slow weirdness of (old) Toto-Rak to Pharos Sirius, the first new dungeon added after ARR launch and a near-total straight shot. I think they understood they were sacrificing atmosphere for efficiency, which is why they reduced the number of dungeons they made and put more effort into making the single path more memorable; sometimes this hits and sometimes it doesn't, but you can usually tell they tried.
As for challenge… dungeons are intentionally not where XIV's challenge lies, unless you were fighting Coincounter pre-telegraphs with a party of sprouts. The new criterion dungeons should answer the difficulty question.
edit – also, try healing Bardam's at min ilvl if you want a challenge 🙃
I remember I had had a dungeon as healer as a first-timer. All went well until near the end, I was experiencing extremely bad ping. I saw my teammates and boss skipping frames left and right. I was forced to blind heal and running like a headless chicken in hopes of avoiding the mechanics. At the end we barely finished it with me and tank survived. Our two DPS were lying on the floor most of the time because I can't heal properly.
Imagine if the dungeon was harder like WOW, I would definitely had ruined others time and effort for this run.
Here's a challenge for the WoW player that made the reddit post: Queue up for any dungeon in WoW, actually try to explore it or take a wrong turn by accident, and count both the amount of times your party will insult you and the seconds it takes for them to kick you.
Because that's exactly how dungeons go in WoW.
The devs said a million times already that they make linear dungeons now because nobody cares about actually exploring them, players will just find the fastest route and blitz through it day 1. Just remember pre-rework Thousand Maws and Brayflox's Longstop.
There is a lot of context in that post that completely discredit this post in my opinion
Thats dungeons,
What is the equivalent of extreme trials in ff14 on wow? Straight boss mechanic.
Or… 8 man raid savage?
First off he is comparing dungeons that are there as a means to level/support the story to dungeons as an endgame. Even if you use those eras of WoW the dungeons were linear, straight forward(and even quicker to clear).
FF14 is made for a more casual playthrough. I've played both and never felt any sense of danger or real challenge in FF14 dungeons. I personally prefer WoW dungeons. However FF14 raids are often times just as hard as some of the WoW raids, but even WoW has nerfed much of those so they're probably pretty even outside of Mythic + raids.
And I know people who have a lot of trouble completing the dungeons, actively avoid them if possible and feel a great sense of relief knowing they can do it with the AI. Not everyone enjoys "hard core content"
FFXIV bans all of its competitive players. If you say anything against or criticize any aspect of this game, you get overwhelmed with white knights that have zero MMO accomplishments. Truly a disgusting game community, that demonizes its most success player base. I mean the game doesn't even allow you to access chat in PvP… Topic closed.
XIV's normal dungeons are designed from Heavensward to be storypieces. There isn't supposed to be really much replay value unless you want to see different interactions on the trust system (I don't consider EXP and stuff to be considered a replay value). And I think from that standpoint they did a good job. Do I think they could add replay value? Absolutely, in fact they just really need to add mechanics to the dungeon mobs or add secondary bosses in the middle or change the bosses entirely (similar to how they handle hard modes in the past).
Criterion dungeons are planned to have a set route because they know everyone will optimise the living shit out of it, might as well cut the optimisation part entirely and give them the full experience. I have no doubts they are going to make mobs minibosses in criterion with things you have to account for when pulling (aka you actually can't full wall).
Oh please, I play WoW as well and their normal and heroic dungeon trash mobs are just trash like FFXIV. The main difference between the two is that you can skip most the trash in WoW and in FFXIV you have to do it. Yea, WoW has mythic, but comparing that to an FFXIV dungeon is like comparing Svage raid to LfR
Rejoice! The criterion dungeon is about to remedy that 🙂
I'm not a fan of the dungeons in FFXIV. I would, like normal raids only do them once if they didn't drop tombstones. They're are boring lol. I'm hopeful for the new hard mode dungeons. ^^
WoW DG,s…Hi its my first time doing this one…Folk insta leave. FFXIV DG,s….Hi its my first time doing this one….Cool lets go.
The op of that thread has those nostalgia glasses on a bit too tight. Even when I didn't play WoW, my cousin was talking about optimum paths. Hell even in 2.5D games, there were optimal paths in open world dungeons and websites that told you the x;y coordinates of where the highest xp mobs spawned and how fast to get to those coordinates.
You explored the dungeon once…maybe twice. After than you would do a loop and hit all the spots.
Even in looter shooters like Division, Destiny, Ghost Recon….you would have a looting loop you ran in the pvpve area. You didn't explore because you were avoiding ambushes. The only time you did was if you were going in to pvp and even then you're focusing more on your surroundings just to survive.
If the person wants a real dungeneering experience, then they should go play D&D, the DM isn't going to tell you what's in the dungeon and it's all trial and error.
TL;DR. All modern MMO dungeons are linear, because people optimize. FF14 dungeons do not waste your time, if you seek a challenge go do savage raids.
It is very elitist thinking as gamers to say that harder is better. All games are designed to be beatable. Only certain people find harder games to be more enjoyable, and this is spread across a wide spectrum of preferences and difficulties.
sounds like a honeybadger 😉
I'm going out on a limb here, because I LOVE FFXIV and still think it's the best MMO out there, but man oh man do I dislike the linear dungeon design. The original concept for the dungeons in 1.0 were open areas with different boss fights depending on your route. It's why certain dungeons used to have off-shoot paths like Toto-Rak, which were still based on the original design. There were incentives for exploring off the beaten path with monsters that drop certain loot, or more recently achievements.
Now I don't think this would work for every dungeon, and I'm not arguing that it should. But which of you hasn't run the Vault and wanted to charge through the gardens instead of fighting in the halls? Who hasn't wanted to take the alternative route in the Copperbell Mines? To say there's no incentive is disingenuous as well. There USED to be. Remember monster experience? They literally removed it from mobs, thus removing any incentive to do anything besides stick to the beaten path.
WoW broke so many players, who confuse punching yourself in the dick on an eternal hamster wheel with fun.
You absolutely can have a hard dungeon… You can throw min IL on and go no healer or tank all DPS RDM for "heals"
ARR had dungeons that are more like WoWs and guess what happened, people didnt like them so they stopped doing the wide open dungeons in favor of the streamlined linear dungeons since more people liked those and you can do far more aesthetically with a linear dungeon vs a large open dungeon since you know exactly when and how they are going to encounter the bosses and mobs
tbh both of them suck at current state. Back in ARR and Vanilla wow dungeons had stuff needed to do in order to progress which make it a DUNGEON. Nowadays those are just a straight line to bosses with trash mobs in-between.
Really, if a player don't like the style of dungeons in ff14, who forces him to play? No one
having played Guild Wars 2 and FFXIV, I was pleasantly surprised to set hat GW2 dungeons are more objective based with either difficult boss fights and puzzles and exploration required. Not to mention the scaling works differently in GW2 than FFXIV. But none of the dungeons were required for story, even though if you did the base version of them, you'd get a bit of cool additional story to the main story. I wouldn't really say either is better than the other, cuz they're both unique and interesting in their own ways.
There are two opinions on most dungeons in FF14
(1) I like this because it’s fast
(2) I hate this because it’s boring
There are very few people who go “wow this is fun” or “hey this is cool.” It really isn’t even about mobs or non-linear design imo. Dungeons are just plain brainless and people are okay with it because they can get a reward out of it with fairly low time investment. And you can see that brainless is the path the dev team have chosen because Heavensward and Stormblood dungeons required a few braincells, but with ShB and EW they just completely threw in the towel and went “fast and fail-proof!”
I still remember your tanxiety video – one of the best guides/pieces of advice you ever presented on this channel imo 🙂
To be honest I dont understand the trend of wow players posting on reddit about how bad "x" design is compared to wow etc etc, as if people dont have horrible experiences in wow daily due to this same design philosophy. FF14 having dungeon content be more casual friendly is why so many players are in the duty finder. Nobody is hitting that button looking for an intense challenge and I usually am thankful for the simplicity of some dungeons when trying to learn new classes/rotations. I'm not clicking that button to challenge my class knowledge or wanting to struggle against some crazy mobs, because that content is elsewhere in the game. I can run extreme trials, savage, deep dungeon all day to suffer if I felt like it but thats just not what I want to do lol. MSQ being an extremely important part of how FFXIV is designed seems to fly right over peoples heads when these post come up. its not just another set of rooms to kill mobs in. Dont even get me started on what is that "hard" content in wow, my guess is if you challenged this player with hard content in another game they'd likely complain that its the designs fault they cant overcome it. Different game different design
Mythic plus is a great idea overall, but wow botches it with 3 major flaws in its design:
A) it has a tight timer for completition, which forces the tank to study the whole dungeon beforehand and god forbid he pulls a pack he shouldnt or if the party wipes. They should at least add 10-15 minutes to each dungeon to allow room for some suboptimal choices or at least a wipe or two. The ideal would be no timer.
B) the key depletion system: its so dumb that your key is downgraded if you fail to do it. This again puts in pressure that you must not fail in any way otherwise you have to lose a hella ton of time to get back to where you were before, also this makes key owners only accept the top specs from the mdi and he tries to get the most overgeared people possible to minimize chances of failure. Just get rid of the keystones themselves and allow the party leader to pick the level of the dungeon at the beggining.
C) mythic plus is not really that optional if you want to be any competitive in raids or pvp either. It is one of the main gearing methods and it is completely random, and you are pushed to do it multiple times a week just to maximize your chances of gearing up, plus you should avoid specific dungeons that do not give the specific gear piece you want. Why is it so hard to award the player a currency for him to buy the gearpiece he wants?
Im optimistic overall for criterion dungeons because they dont have the keystone depletion system plus its not a gearing method, its there just for the challenge itself. Im worried about yoshi p having put a timer on it… wow war flashbacks. At least im confident that if they see its a bad thing they are gonna remove it, so hyped for criterions
Some players who play nothing but Savage content goes into a matchmake activity thinking that everyone in the team they're on needs to play at their playstyle. I was playing healer in a lvl 70 dungeon and the tank pulled everything in the area without using his own self sustaining skills (Paladin) making my healing job much harder and made my mp drain fast. We were "too slow" for him and he just up and left. When going into matchmake don't make assumptions on other players. The others who are probably good at their class or job a have never done the activity before and may not know the mechanics. Heck now there's the duty support which I use alot to help a lot to understand the dungeon and class. Overall just be patient and kind as not everyone thinks and play the same way.
I’m excited for the new harder dungeons to do with friend’s it’ll be easier to get 3 friends
The difficulty argument sounds makes me feel that normal and even heroic to a degree were forgotten about. There are almost 0 one shots mechanics or things you absolutely ha e yo interrupt. You dont even need to know most mechanics. You try you clear. I don't understand why "The masses" would have absolutely any issue clearing them. Mythic + isn't what makes the mobs more engaging. They have the same abilities in normal and heroic usually. Difficult and engaging aren't the same thing.
The best games in the industry are the ones where the narrative goes hand in hand with gameplay, like every story driven RPG even on easiest difficulty has a somewhat challenging end boss. When you play the last dungeon of EW and every boss hits like a wet noodle and you dont need to do half of the mechanics since the dont hurt enough for you to care. That degrades the enjoyment of the story and its not that fulfilling and tank does not need to know every mechanic, thats what universal design language is there for. Like if your tank dont know how to save up some mitigation for trash or boss beyond level 50+ thats the tanks problem not the game.
the non-linear routing for m+ in wow actually comes to play in MDI but yeah, it doesnt matter to us plebs 🙁
My take on FF dungeons is that they are meant to be streamlined on-rail experiences, while WoW dungeons are (allegedly) carefully crafted with placed mobs and non-linear layouts.
There are pros and cons to each of those styles. With Final Fantasy, dungeons are just faster and often times you come out of them feel better, while in WoW they can take much longer with the extra trash mobs, but maybe you could go through a dungeon and not experience all of it, making the next time a little more interesting.
I would like a bit more variation with the dungeons in Final Fantasy, but I think for how they are currently designed, they are good for the game as is.
To say one thing is better/worse than another when they obviously prioritize two different things is a bit disingenuous. Quazii is right, it's apples and oranges, an while one could have a preference for one or the other, it doesn't necessarily mean one is objectively better.
I've played WoW and I've played FFXIV and I'll say there's a reason we both consider non-boss mobs as "trash". Even when they all have mechanics and nuance, they just end up being an annoying timewaster. One of the most frequently complained about things I even hear about WoW these days is having to clear out trash or trash respawning.
So as anyone could tell, I've never really been into the dungeon format of content outside of running it for the first time or two for the spectacle. Once the newness is gone, it feels like the most tedious form of combat content and I do kind of prefer the current status quo for FFXIV dungeons (when it comes to normal modes).
That said, I am curious to see how criterion and criterion savage feel and hope those that are excited for this content really do enjoy it.
Pharos Sirius was difficult when it first came out. People complained about it and they nerfed it. We beat it with a BLM-WHM-PLD-WAR because Siren used to wreck people. I personally like the harder dungeons. Raiding is cool and all but I like a big zone not one boss with giant shiney moves.
Also, I don't think the wow community is as bad as it is portrayed here in regards to regular duengon content. People aren't mad if you do different routes or you don't know some basic things until you actually get into serious content in mythic plus. If you are doing a +10 and don't know basic mechanics, we have an issue, but we can still get over it. Anything under +10 is a learning keys for most. I have gone to learn duengon mechanics in even +6-7s, especially in this new season where we haven't played most of the duengons in years. I don't expect great players in lower end content.
I was playing wow classic tbc – got to 70 and was gonna tank lvl 70 dungeons … but I never did because I didn't know anything about the dungeons. I was almost pre raid bis and defense capd but because I would need directions I didn't jump into the role (in pugs). and lets not mention heroics.
that can't be the intro level experience of dungeons and FFxiv don't really do that -except for some bosses. I remember the boss that gave you Death by staring at you and almost no one realise what happens unless they've done the dungeon before and just die because – not knowing you got hit OR not knowing how to get rid of the debuff.
for randoms – the level of difficulty of dungeons is really good