On this week’s Grinding Gear Podcast, Garrett & Kyle talk shop about YouTube analytics and the recent falloff of interest in Final Fantasy XIV narrative videos.
Not a clip from the Grinding Gear YouTube stream on https://www.youtube.com/amovetv
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I think it's more so the discourse this time around than anything else. Endwalker didn't have this issue, and yes, it was the ending to a 10-year story essentially, but the discourse surrounding it was also just way better. That certainly motivated me to check out more playthroughs from people. Dawntrail on the other hand, while I definitely have issues with it, has just been soured for me even more due to the way people have acted about everything. When I finished my playthrough originally, I was planning on watching all of the same creators I normally do, but I only ended up watching like 2 or 3 before I just decided to step away for the time being to basically avoid the community. Even now, I don't bother with any of the main discussion places other than here on YouTube since I can curate the content I wanna see usually. I will say though, I did watch your DT MSQ video from start to finish that you recently put out, and I very much enjoyed it.
The new fandom for Star Wars is indeed evil, but hopefully they'll run off after the disaster that was the Acolyte. But to the point of XIV… it's because this has been, story wise, the worst expansion in the entire history of the game. Turns out people don't like the game which really emphasized you being the Hero, side-lining you and making you into a derpy catwoman's errand boy for 20+ hours.
I think the lack of a relic grind and lack of a Field Operation (like Eureka or Bozja) made it hard to keep around players post-Endwalker. Variant Dungeons are cool, but you queue into them instead of running around a zone with other people in shout chat to talk to.
I would love to go back to being obsessed with FFXIV, grinding all my dailies everyday while having XIV content creators on the side. But I have very few good things to say about Dawntrail so I don't look to engage with Dawntrail content on youtube, feels like I'm going to have to wait another 2-3 years for the next story expansion to enjoy.
i have several thoughts as someone who enjoys watching other people go through ffxiv, and why i havent watched much dawntrail content:
1. i get absolutely exhausted by the negativity or misunderstandings that the content creators express. i think compared to the past expansions, dawntrail has the most amount of moments of lore/story misunderstandings from the player side, or people just jumping onto the bandwagon to bash on even minor things that doesnt deserve it due to the negative aspect of the expansion. dont get me wrong, i dont think dawntrail is perfect, theres a lot that i feel the writers fumbled on and the misunderstandings people are having are testament to that, but it makes it a bad viewing experience as someone who enjoys the game imo when the content creator rolls their eyes and nitpicks things that dont deserve to be nitpicked due to the current atmosphere of the community.
criticism for the game is necessary for the game to grow better, but when its done in bad faith, it makes it a bad viewing experience.
2. the aspects of dawntrail that emotional vampires would love to watch, are very much in the latter half of the expansion, to which i dont think you guys have gotten to yet. so im sure once you guys get there and talk about your thoughts, more people will tune in. ive been searching for peoples reactions to the final area but i just cant find videos / VODs via the search function, so i think people arent capitalizing on that part. dawntrail is filled with so much lore id love to hear other peoples thoughts
3. as many people have mentioned in the comments already, the nostalgia for dawntrail has yet to set in. endwalker, shadowbringers, stormblood, heavensward. theyre all set in the past and have cemented themselves in our memories. lore implications and future story has made past expansions better. but as dawntrail is up to date, we have yet to get more story/lore that will help us appreciate it further.
4. another thing someone else mentioned is that i would love to see you guys discuss and compare duties again. making ranking videos for your favorite instances and the mechanics you find interesting. that kinda content you guys made before was really fun and i enjoyed listening cus it can help me appreciate aspects of those dungeons or trials i didnt think of before. id love more of that kind of non reaction content since everyone on youtube makes the same ffxiv reaction content or vod reuploads………………………..
I think people are not watching videos in general because the content of Dawntrail does not excite people the way previous expansions did so they are not as interested in hearing recaps, breakdowns or personal takes and opinions on it.
Also never saw the video recommended that you said isn't getting traffic and I was off work last week and had YouTube going 24/7 caught up on a bunch of your vids.
I think one more issue to keep in mind is that now you are current, people who haven't played the recent expansion don't want to watch content about it before they have played it themselves. The majority of people that play FF XIV had finished Endwalker by the time you guys were playing it, but I have a lot of friends who have been busy and haven't had a chance to finish (or even start) Dawntrail yet. I'm sure that isn't the only reason (the lukewarm response isn't helping for sure), but there are definitely other factors to consider. I'm just hopeful that the patches knock it out of the park and gives the lore fanatics a lot to start speculating over and then people will be scouring YouTube for content.
A certain time just needs to pass for people to really build up nostalgia for the past things. I remember some folks being disappointed by the EW patch storyline and it not going anywhere, having no stakes etc etc (the WORST EXPANSION EVER discourse), but when you just can go through it one go, it's great and the highs hit you that much stronger due to the back-to-back pace, rather than waiting and overanalyzing four months in between each little story bit. Add in the Pandaemonium that is essentially MSQ-Epilogue and it's a fantastic story to experience the second time, noticing more of the setups early on. But while it was current, folks just weren't as keen on it to say the least – and if you believed the discourse, the game was dead and over and declining in players and just ready to be thrown in the garbage, really.
This has more to do with the content creation and its pressures, in my view. Unlike many other games, FF14 just doesn't have that… endless "thing" to talk about. Designers aren't reinventing the wheel every patch like Blizzard with WoW so there's little to get upset about aside from long-standing gripes that probably won't get changed anytime soon. The patch cadence is predictable for the entire expansion, so you know what they generally tend to have, there's no speculation whether there's even going to be more story or are we speedrunning the story and dumping its explanation off into some novel…
So all that's left to talk about, once the content's done and shown off is… drama. Until the next live letter, there is just NOTHING that a content creator would like to talk about that doesn't require *significant planning and effort*. Can't just turn on your webcam and rant for 40 minutes over some bad out of the blue patch notes, because the patch happens every 4 months on the dot. It's either drama or starvation, and so DRAMA it is…
As for your streams, it's really just that you guys have a very good vibe going that carries over to any game you're playing – so the turnover is generally consistent throughout. I've found my own little niches in the FF community whose streams I just vibe with and that's where I stay – until they overdose on that easy drama needle and I get tired of their stuff, because they become addicted to it and continue producing mostly that kind of content.
ive been getting less FF videos reccomended but ive also been shutting down overly negative ones that come off as farming negativity. things might pick up soon with the live letter coming up
The wave has passed. When Endwalker came out, FFXIV was the hottest shit. People outside of FFXIV were interested and wanted to see what the hubub was. After that, a ton of the momentum was carried by “new players and streamers experiencing it for the first time.” With Dawntrail, there isn’t enough of an external push towards the game to drive further engagement, it’s mostly just XIV’s existing fanbase, and unfortunately Dawntrail just so happened to be super controversial. So you have a limited pool of people, that isn’t being bolstered anymore by another game imploding and sending its playerbase elsewhere, further limited by a lack of interest from specific groups.
I am not surprised in the least that engagement is down.
I do think the proximity to release probably does a lot. People are either still playing it or have only recently finished and maybe aren't looking to watch it again immediately. There's also just less on the go than the likes of ShB and EW (much as we expected given the 'stakes reset' – though, without getting into any specifics, I'm already excited to see where they go as patch content kicks off).
With how much was going on in ShB and EW, all the interweaving threads, the latter-half character arcs, the sheer scale and spectacle, they're always going to be the things people are most excited to watch people see for the first time, or to have story discussions on.
I am actually curious to come back around in 5 years, 10 years – when we're deep into wherever this 'new decade arc' takes us – and see how new DT playthroughs are received. Not only will we likely see all these pieces being set up that we didn't know about at the time, but I'd kinda forgotten that, when ShB and EW launched, there were sections some people really didn't like (such as the Loporrit sequences) . When you watch first time playthroughs now it feels like everyone's just having a good time with it, whether that's bc of distance or bc only people who really love the stories are coming bck to watch people play through them.
Personally I've watched probably 90% of the playthroughs from about eight different people, and 40+% from another half a dozen. I know I'm a weird outlier though, and I did enjoy the vast majority of the DT story, but the people I'm watching I watch bc I like hanging out in their streams or throwing the vods on as much as I do seeing them experience the story.
But also I really like watching people take on battle content for the first time, and in that area – solo duties, dungeons, trials, raids – Dawntrail is pretty universally praised, and with good reason IMO, so that's a big part of what I've enjoyed seeing people tackle.
Regardless of this all – loving the content! First time I've been with you guys from the start of an expac and I'm often counting the hours down to each stream. It's been a delight.
I think the reality is that the gameplay in MSQ is very boring outside of some instanced duties. There's not really much gameplay, it's just walking and talking with nothing happening dynamically. So every experience is the same. Previously the writing was strong enough and interesting enough that it wasn't that hard to look past it, especially when watching someone else experience it. This time the story is a little flat and there's no nostalgia yet, so content is less interesting. I still watch speedkills or worlds first races for savage/ultimate but MSQ playthroughs just aren't very engaging unless it's one of the big moments.
To be honest I like playing FFXIV more than I do watching it.
Cinder Spider and Caetsu Chaiji are the only 2 FFXIV channels I enjoy cause they don't focus on MSQ.
Cinder Spider with his Achievement hunt and Caetsu with his Mentor roulette vids.
a lot of my friends quit in endwalker. I still have a few in my guild but… its not the same… sad cuz Dawntrail ended up being one of my favorites. I go ShB > EW > DT > StB > HW.
i usually liked the msq discussion videos, but dawntrail doesn't feel as content dense or quality for things. it being a new start is one thing, but the story doesn't feel like it has the same care or interconnectivity of before- i enjoy some of the character focus, but it has bad pacing issues and some characters are just… not properly explained… in how they act or anything. not to mention a severe feeling of being insanely rushed and some things just sort of … happening? the story generally feels less polished, interwoven, and connected as before. sequence of events happening for the story to progress, rather than the consequences of people's plans and actions playing out.
The discourse is exhausting which makes it unpleasant to participate in the community right now. I am largely on break from the community but not the game. I am still progging m3s and having fun with it.
The other likely issue is that you are still way off from the “emotional vampirism” section of DT. I can’t wait for you to hit the finale and I think it’ll be great to watch but the first half of DT is very personal. I enjoyed doing it for myself but I am not sure I would enjoy other people doing it — especially someone who isn’t enjoying it.
The good news is that the focus seems to be shifting to GW2 so that should blow up and the toxic negatives should follow the hype elsewhere just like they followed the hype here from WOW.
As for you personally, honestly the few videos recommended to me recently seem to be from Endwalker — so I have assumed they were old. Your Wuk Lamat video I watched because Kyle mentioned it — it wasn’t recommended to me. My guess? Negative interaction is still interaction and it may be recommended to people who are likely to hate it more to the people who are likely to love it.
I am enjoying videos that focus on the future as these are less impacted by the current haters. I liked Jesse’s Azemvengers video and speculation on lore, between the lines, synodic scribe stuff like that. Not sure that’s Garret’s thing but maybe Kyle could do some lore stuff. I liked your idea about the WOW MSQ because I will never play WOW again but I love stories, so I’d tune in.
7.1 is coming too with the 24-man raids and their new 24-man raid savage. That could be a great community-wide event for you guys to try these large scale fights with 22 viewers.
I love you guys but I’m taking a break from the videos because I haven’t started dawntrail yet. So don’t want to be spoiled. Plan on binge watching as soon as I’m caught up
I have just personally tuned out of FFXIV after completing the raid, I farmed the extremes for a bit but I didn't feel like sticking it through for the mounts so I just checked out waiting for the next patch when there is something to farm.
Loved DT, i do agree that the fan base's toxic minority has eroded my joy of joining others along their journey, they need to push their disappointment onto others.
Part of my personal lack of engagement is that I'm actively put off by the idea of having to re-experience the story of Dawntrail, but it's mostly that I've reduced my engagement with the game overall. I'm no longer subbed because the absurdity of paying monthly for a game that drops a week's worth of content every four months finally hit me when Dawntrail's MSQ made me stop playing. I can't justify $15 for a single dungeon and either a raid series or a single alliance raid. Endwalker was especially bad because the evergreen content was island sanctuary, a single-player spreadsheet management game. Once we get something like Bozja again I might come back but I also might be completely over it by then. Sorry you guys have to suffer due to it, but it's a pretty common sentiment I've seen in the community and my friend's list wasn't this offline even in the extreme doldrums of post-post Endwalker.
Going to be honest: Dawntrail really is that bad. No one is nostalgic for it and no one is going to ever be nostalgic for it. Pointless cutscenes and throwaway conversations do not make a compelling story. This part of the MSQ is going to be in the game forever. Why do you think the naysayers exist? Do you think they all just appeared one day out of nowhere? No, they are actual players that are actually unhappy with the direction the game took. No one paid $40 for the Wuk Lamat show. I think it's delusional and irresponsible to write them off and pretend Dawntrail is at the same level of quality and excitement as any other expansion.
Another thing: Nothing exists in a vacuum. Square Enix has been making some really dumb moves lately like censoring Dragon Quest and disrespecting Akira Toriyama. They are still partnered with Sweet Baby Inc after Forspoken closed an entire studio. FF7Rebirth and FFXVI have both performed under expectations. Yoshida has made a bunch of bone headed comments about training the dev team to function without him. There are more projects in the works at CS3 and it's obvious he's not focused on FFXIV. He even stated he wants to invest in other projects and not the MMO, despite the fact it's obvious the MMO has been propping up the company for over a decade now. The MMO has a bunch of issues and little annoyances that haven't been solved or fixed despite being issues for years.
The biggest factor for lowered views and the actual final nail in the coffin is that the patch cadence is too long. 4 months for an update is too much for the amount of content we are getting per patch. We were already suffering hard in Endwalker from this and it even caused big streamers to quit. Now Yoshida is here saying he wants to invest in other games and train the team to function without him. We thought we already hit rock bottom with Dawntrail, but the game's quality is about to go into free fall. That is why no one wants to watch videos about FFXIV anymore. It's just depressing and overall a downer. Even if you like the game, you can't deny this is a low point in the MMO's lifespan.
I can't speak for others but I will say I sorta stopped watching the main channel because the uploads seemed to have slowed. Streams are fun if you are there for them, but I'm also no longer in a position where I can watch them live. And I don't really find stream vods very fun to watch. I am a fan of more edited content like your analysis/experience videos. In August there were no public uploads so I just sorta went "okay see ya when I see ya". I'm just waiting on videos like the 6.X patch retrospectives. A breakdown on island sanctuary. The ways where variant dungeons worked and didn't work. Even a video maybe talking about other things like GW2, The War Within, or whatever you two want to talk about. I understand and it's totally cool to take breaks from uploading but that's basically what I'm waiting for though. More regular scheduled videos instead of unknowns that lead me to just wait until content builds up so I can just marathon all of it. Still love ya guys though and can't wait for more.
Edit: And yes FFXIV videos are down across the board which can be for many number of things, though don't let that discourage you. "If you build it, they will come" after all.
I haven't been watching the videos because you guys haven't seemed like you were liking DT during your streams. No real reason to watch if you aren't liking it. I do try to watch or at least log on your streams when I can cause I want to support you.
I do want to say that your Barbariccia video was one of my favorite FF14 videos in a while. You're right about Dawntrail enjoyers just avoiding Dawntrail discussion. Anytime you try to post something positive there is a random chance someone comes out of nowhere and throws Dawntrail hate at you. So seeing you guys discussing something unrelated to Dawntrail that you had fun with was super refreshing. I'm genuinely surprised by how few views it has gotten at this point compared to your other videos.
Honestly, for me it is just that Dawntrail wasn't great and I just finished it not that long ago. I'm not interested in rewatching something mediocre so soon. I still tune in for dungeons and trials though, cause the combat is the best it's been and I am interested in seeing reactions to that content. I'd also be interested to see how you guys handle savage raids, but that is a time commitment if doing it blind. And that might not translate well to the wider audience.
be ready with a thoughts video for the live letter this saturday night, that's my video advice
You guys could give V Rising a look if you want a spooky game that a lot of people can play together.
I think for me it is also that so many people are going through the MSQ, it is now hard to catch up. The VOD will always be there in my mind, so I keep it for later!
Yes, Dawntrail is that bad, lol
For me, it's the clips channel still being an expac behind. I was hoping to be watching clips of your DT playthrough a couple months ago and having a decent sized MSQ playlist to binge by now. The video release schedule being inconsistent and none of the clips having anything to do with DT while you're actively playing it feels very disjointed. All the fresh cooks, thoughts, and memes are locked behind streams atm, which lowers engagement (for me at least). Also, despite the first half of StB being a notorious slog, you guys were pumping out videos and clips like crazy. You were deep diving each character, location, tribe, etc. I felt immersed. There's so much to talk about in DT that has nothing to do with the repetitive MSQ discourse, which I feel like most of your DT content has leaned into so far. I wish you were still following the same formula.
One thing I've noticed regarding Dawntrail discourse is that it seems to have a VERY strong feedback loop due to having more people at the extremes of opinion than past expansions. While the majority of players will fall somewhere in the range of "it was fine/okay" to "it was disappointing/boring", there seems to be far more arguing between people that loved it and people that hated it this time around.
This combines with the fact that people are unable to disconnect social issues from their subjective opinions on the game itself, so the conversations around the story, characters, voice acting, music, etc. all get muddled by activism, virtue signaling, racism, transphobia, etc. Valid criticisms of the voice acting, use of certain music tracks in cutscenes, over and under-usage of various characters, etc. are frequently met with severe backlash and accusations of transphobia and racism, which makes the majority of the playerbase with "moderate" opinions just not want to say ANYTHING for fear of getting dogpiled-on.
"Toxic positivity" has always been a bit of an issue with the FFXIV community, but things never seemed to get TOO far out-of-hand, because the opinions of the playerbase were generally positive, not giving the white knights much to lash out about. However, with Dawntrail's middling reception causing more mixed and negative feedback to bubble to the surface, this zealous segment of the community has gone on a rampage, alienating a large part of the "engaged" community that actively participate in the subreddit, watch content on youtube, etc.
I personally have entirely stopped visiting the FFXIV subreddit at this point, and only occasionally click on a recommended XIV video as long as it has NOTHING to do with the DT story itself. It's the best way I've found to stay sane in the current environment.