I’ve been thinking on this for a little while, and in light of last week’s video which is very tangentially related, I wanted to put my thoughts to paper and talk about this.
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Back in ARR I loved playing with SMN… cause BLM could rip my aggro.
How times have changed..
Here's the hot take and truth of Ranged Phys. It's only artificially "bad" because of how the community views it. 99.99% of people only care for dps. Range contributes with their insane mitigation. Even MCH viewed as the worst, has a 15% and 10% which is INSANE.
I can't tell you how many times I singlehandedly saved a pf because I'm a MCH with an extra reprisal in my pocket and our tank just didn't wanna mit. Or Saveing a clear group because the dps were too panicy to use feint and addle, so I'll just do it myself.
Range is great at what it does– Supporting with defensives, and buffing the OTHER classes.
I think that people crying about range are just not looking at what the class is supposed to actually be doing, much like the healers who never touch GCD heals. Some people care only for a classes DPS potential and do not look at the greater impact on players who arent top 1% raiders.
i think what stands out the most to me is that phys ranged feels kinda like… not the easy job, but like, it feels sorta like the easy option? run around at range with no castbars in exchange for less damage. and that just.. really feels like a poor way to frame a whole ass job type. while most raid groups appreciate the extra mit and/or 1% bonus from all roles, i feel like that logic can really easily just turn into something like, why bother with a phys ranged, just get another caster instead. that being said for most high end content i feel like can be run fine either way, but it's just, a really poor sense of self for the role
god i really wish there was more specifically ranged bait stuff. or specific dps role stuff. i do melee picto for m1-4s, minus m3s, but like, i cant really say like…. fake melee or real ranged, it's the same mechanics just with a different spot or support buddy. i think the one thing is collecting hearts in beat 1(?) of m2s so i don't have to participate in the stack at the end. great for role flexibility within dps, but like… you mentioning ranged baiting things makes me miss that kinda thing
also, i never played during HW, but like, maybe caster ranged should come back, though i'd want them to balance between it not just being a static thing that Happens every 60s/120s, but also not something that feels like, well just keep it on Always yknow. maybe a stacked skill with a cooldown? somewhat like hammer phase in picto maybe, but lasting longer than 3 gcds. maybe on bard, though not necessarily
mch feels like it has barely improved over the years after stormblood. I hate how button mashy the weaving feels… it got so bad that I went to healing and tanking… I find reaper a little more fun too…
Ranged exist to tax party dps, otherwise you would just bring 2 Pcts.
Hahahaha.
Tanks have aggro management got me good, thanks good joke.
I wouldn't say having to press 1 button to tank swap for a mechanic occasionally is really enough to call it aggro management. But the point that they do have to cooperate with the other tank for mechanics that require it is more than rdps is responsible for, for sure. I'm just one of those people who thought actual aggro management vs the rest of the party was good actually and have missed it since it was functionally removed as a concept.
I miss physical ranged being the support role, i miss saving fights with LB3. I dont like cast bars, id play a caster if i wanted that, but i liked the rest of the combo design in HW. I greatly dislike the ways they've been advancing the jobs now so i've been on Melee DPS since Stormblood. i'm also not a raider i'm more casual these days too.
I feel maybe physical range could be similar to physical melee but in reverse. you have freedom of movement, so to keep uptime maybe you should be forced outside of melee range otherwise you do less damage or cant even attack. might be hard with how current battle design is. just a random thought.
Supposedly the guy who runs ff14 mained black mage and thats why he created wanderers minuet. He wanted the joy of stationary casting to extend to bows.
Honestly I wish the random requirements on dancer were a bit scaled back bit.
724 Makayla Plaza
i feel all tanks feel too similar T_T
Make them a pute dps but with some half cast gcd and full cast burst. For MCH, make Drill and Saw a half cast and reward 123 combo with a free ogcd like viper, or make drill saw and anchor need action to prepare and share a same resource, letting you decide whether to gain Queen faster or Deal more damage.
You see, that's where the trouble began. That expansion. That damned expansion.
Remember when Ballad restored MP? ARR Bard remembers.
I think WoW does something like this, not super sure though because I've never played–but I'd love to see them split each current job into two different aspects. Healers could get a heavy heal low DPS variant and a more hybrid healer/caster variant. Like split Astro into Astro and Geomancer, give the Geomancer different OGCDs or something but keep some of the core skills. Bard could get a higher DPS and lower utility version, like Ranger. Tanks too, like having a DPS heavy Dark Knight and then a different aspect with more sustain, like Rune Fencer.
They share levels and weapons, maybe different job quests or something. But that way everybody can have a main but bring different things to the table depending on what's needed. It would be a lot more to keep balanced, but I'd love to see a change like this added.
Sincerely, a FFXI player who wants to see all his favorite jobs added 😢
I think the only way they can mend this is to really destroy the majority of 8 person raidwide buffs and bring focus to actual supportive abilities. AST cards, old Dragon Sight, Dance Partner… all abilities that could have been expanded upon and had stronger use cases, but in the effort to focus on a specific burst window, the choice becomes meaningless. More jobs being selfish dps is not a bad thing. And a fully selfish 1 player per job party is already actively in the game with zero issues.
Otherwise, I think it's important to truly understand that a distinction in play style or a skill ceiling is not a bad thing for jobs. Having old Darkside that fell off when you spent all your mp and stopped your mp regen was not a bad thing. It made the class unique and required a person to have a certain mastery while the casual player who kept Grit on could play low risk and learn.
I'm totally behind the idea of converting Phys Range into more a support role rather than half-heartedly placing it inbetween that and DPS. Having more heals, mitigation, or even abilities similar to Expedient would just make the role feel more impactful.
My main issue with how the rope feels is that the two role actions other than head graze and peloton never goes on my hotbars because I just do not see any in and out of raid use for them. Heavy is only good in the chase but if you get far enough away while kiting them in field content then they’ll just reset aggro. Or inflicting bind… that lasts until someone hits it with a gcd or 10 seconds.
I would like to see the three phys range jobs split up from one another and indulge further into their specialization. Bard for party buffs and dots, machinist into more damage that rivals the heaviest hitting melees and mages or have the support utility like ninja to put more damage into a target. Dancer I’m not sure what id do, I think it’s in a good place for what it is.
can we get that bard back, that sounds like so much fun to play, instead of the discount dancer we have now.
The issue is the content. Every job is the same because all of the content is the same. There's no point of support or utiltiy in classes, everything is just "a dps" because that's all everything needs to be. Tanks can pull an entire dungeon until a wall stops them, and then everyone just AoE it down. It doesn't matter what job you're playing, all you're doing is doing damage. There's never any need for strategy or utility, because nothing in the game is designed to encourage or even require it. It doesn't matter if you're playing casual or hardcore content, it's all the same. It's just do as much damage as possible, no strategy or utiltiy involved.
Every dungeon is the same. You will do about 2 wall pulls before reaching the boss, AoE it down; you dps down the boring boss. Do this until the dungeon is over.
Savage. You will follow a preset geometrical pattern of safezones on the ground. Just move while dpsing down the boss.
Ultimate. You will follow a preset geometrical pattern of safezones on the ground. Just move while dpsing down the boss.
No level of content makes use of any sort of strategy or utility. Even the 'hard' fights are just scripted things where you're just… doing damage. There's nothing 'hard' about a fight that is simply a memory game. Once you memorize the scripted sequence of where to stand and let thing resolve, there's nothing else to think about. You're just dpsing.
This is made even more evident by the fact that nothing changes regardless of your party comp. It doesn't matter who or what is in your party, the motions are always the same, and you're all always doing the same damage. This is because the game designs forces you to do nothing but the same thing anyway, so there's no room to make the job's unique, because they're going to be performing the same maneuvers and actions as every other job in these scripted and highly restricted fights.
We've been saying to add more utility to DPS FOR YEARS now since Shadowbringers, and the whole community shot us down every time. Yeah I'm done, this game fell off so hard after Heavensward, and I'm tired of pretending like all the gutting of the classes and class fantasy they've done with every expac is remotely tolerable.
13:25 I would rather have more interesting fights. All dps seem to be more or less the same. I played Redmage and I am basically a melee/ranged/caster and it doesnt matter much where I am. I wish we had fight designs that required our role to be relevant. Like in E8S in the add phase, us having specific job actions like stun, silence, etc was interesting. A fight in which a volitile target needs to be put to sleep by a caster or some approaching bomb shackled by a ranged dps or slowed down would be a great thing. The fights are also all just very coordinated dances. Which can be very boring. It says a lot when I can play the entire phase 1 of TOP with one hand, without touching my mouse or turning my camera. But it also is probably difficult making interesting fight without making them too hard or giving them dps checks so low that the high end player dont feel fulfillment from their own performance. Having a middleground is good. Lost Arc had very dynamic fights, where the boss did a "pool" of skills over a certain percent tile of his health. There was also far more boss movement and aggro management. It was an actual encounter with an enemy. The current fight are just huge target dummies that often are just walls without even having any directional requirements. I keep simping for e8s. Where The boss made you look away, made you pull the boss to the edge to slide over the ice to the other side of the arena, not falling off, to dodge laser beams, made you run far out or in, as a ranger even giving you the option to remain outside, as you could still attack from far away outside the donut axe/scythe kick atacks. E8S was an insane example of how well designed a fight could be so it really pisses me off watching these limp ass morning cartoon kpop dance choreographic fight designs… that's just boring af.
Personally, I would love the return of some kind of bow mage playstyle. A Ranger? A Sniper (just steal some from the MCH PvP gameplay)? For what it's worth, I suspect we'll see some level of overhaul to the role with the next expansion – we're due for a new phys ranged, afterall.
I swear the pvp job design team and the pve job design team need to meet each other at some point. Ever since pvp was overhauled back in 6.1, I was always hoping that pvp would end up being some kind of proving ground for the pve job changes.
Like said in this video, physical ranged are very different between the 2 game modes, but there are also some cool differences in other jobs like BLM with the superflare mechanic or GNB with bloodfest functionning as a pseudo-BLU.
I don't think most players hate these ideas and if implemented in the appropriate way in pve they could be a good breeze of fresh air for some jobs.
What I think they need to do is determine if Support DPS is a real role anymore. If it isn't feasible tokeep that title they could scrap Bard and turn it into Hunter or Sharp-shot. Removing the songs and applying skills that deal damage in a full rotation. Empyreal Arrow would need to change what it does (either potency or letting Barrage work with it putting it into their burst phases), could increase potencies of the DoTs or even add a third (E.x. burning arrow, which was a ground aoe fire puddle in the past before removed. They could make it single target burning DoT on the target instead.) One interesting mechanic is they could try to implement is the distance idea they have in PvP already but for targets on certain skills (Empyreal Arrow and Refulgent arrow would be good for this i think, Dealing more damage the further you are away from the target). This would change how players position in general for healing purposes and may even change later mechanics. They could add a passive that makes burst shot/Refulgent arrow hit twice, Changing Barrage to use 5 arrows instead. During Boss mechanics they could have more Randomized aoe attack patterns around the bards Preferred distance, (if implemented), making them have to adjust and move to dodge as reactionary play. Kiting on fights would also provide a roll easily that was taken from Ranged Phys. (I don't know DNC or MCH so i can't really say how they would change, They could make dancer a healer and the supposed new ranged dps could do something else damage wise)
The support side of Bard if removed could be changed to a healer role and they just make an entertainer class that sings and heals/buffs/debuffs. (Like FFx-2 Songstress dress-sphere)
If they decided to keep Support DPS as a thing, they could remove all personal buffs (ones that only affect that player) from classes that apply them and increase their potencies of skills just slightly to help rebalance. Then they would have to rely on Phys ranged for the buffs. Which would make support dps more important to raids. It really wouldn't change combat mechanics themselves, just what you need on the team. This would require a big change though from on Vipers though, as they were built for this content right now. Bard songs could be increased potency on what they do and Dancers could possibly be given maybe 2 Dance partners to use to help overall to counter the lack of personal buffs (i don't play dancer so i'm not sure how it all works). MCH could technically drop the Support side and just be the Phys ranged powerhouse, dealing the most damage of the three to make up for no party buffs if in a party (I don't play MCH but this make sense, they use guns. Guns should feel like they hurt the boss). This wouldn't change casters much either I believe as most casters buffs are raid wide or they have to stay in it (Blm leylines). Picto would still stand out as the strongest class by far without changes but they could reduce potencies of it's skill or Raise potencies of others to match the damage output. overall, The support roll would still be the lowest DPS of the DPS classes but would make others rely on it's role outside of the 1%.
8.0 SAVE JOB DESIGN AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
id rather have the utility from Stormblood or a more impactful amount of damage but phys ranged have nothing really. And SE made it so you need a phys ranged for the 1% hp and damage. Really you just need a phys ranged to exist and that is their only purpose. Feels awful because no one wants to play it in my raid group but I have a history of oranges on phys ranged so its the slot I have… even though id rather just be double caster and not a phys ranged.
I want to say that I wish it was a bit more clear that this was a video more geared towards phys ranged dps rather than just a general outward look into the dps jobs as a whole. Because while I DO like the way DRG feels now, it was an absolute farcry from a fundamental rework that they sort of touted that it would be. So while you are focused on a specific group of dps's issues, I want to think about the problem with jobs at large I also just want to say this because it's been brewing in my mind and I REALLY hope you catch my thoughts here in the sea of comments:
I don't think it's entirely coincidental that the last time they had significantly uprooted jobs in a comprehensive manner was Stormblood. You could argue Heavensward was the real last time, but I think Stormblood is more significant because of one thing specifically:
Ultimates.
I strongly believe that CB3 is very very shy from ever uprooting jobs in a way that they once did because they want the ultimates to still have their relative feel that they did on launch, especially because as it's universally agreed and accepted that ultimates are one of the game's lasting content you can go back to again and again.
I wouldn't be surprised if they had some seriously innovative ideas for DRG's rework that ended up falling flat because in the process of their rework project, they found out that the job fell apart in lower level content. Which would normally just be brushed off if it was level 50 and 60, because who actually really cares?
Except we do care about ultimates, starting at level 70. This is also why I think no matter what, they try their hardest to make sure newer jobs are at least functional by level 70, without regard for the balance of them. See: PCT topping every ultimate's damage charts… and if not topping, they're just about at the top. And this isn't relative to how strong PCT is right now, it is just blatantly 10% better. Reaper was boring at 70 but dealt ludicrous damage as well in Endwalker. It's a very clear trend.
And if you really boil it down, they have both the feedback of the community yelling aloud that they want the design of jobs to never be too complicated, plus the desire to keep ultimates playable, in stark contrast to older savage content or extremes. And at this point, level 70 to level 100 is 30 levels, right? That's 15 different buttons or features that they will refuse to touch or modify in any way.
I think the only counter argument to this would be the fundamental rework they did for MCH in Shadowbringers. That was a fundamental change from what I understand of it. Beyond that though, it's very clear and obvious to me that from Shadowbringers on, it has been a systematic process of just adding new things on top of what already existed. New finishers, enhanced abilities, upgraded potencies, etc etc. But nothing fundamentally *new* besides new jobs.
This is getting really long so I want to offer what I REALLY hope they'll do. Which is a sort of prestige system from 8.0 and on. Yoshi P has already said they're very very reluctant to just go above level 100, and while not sharing ideas on what that would look like, I could see split skill trees eventually being something they land on.
Letting you fundamentally swap out abilities or choose ones that let you modify your gameplay. The important part of this being it is *ONLY* from level 100 and on. So you leave everything before it stay in place, while letting players have the new experience of a potentially different job feel once they reach 8.0 content. I really hope something like this gets put in place for 8.0 because frankly, while Dawntrail is promising, and absolutely has the potential to be the new Stormblood in terms of raid fights and combat content being fun and thrilling; I can see myself stop playing in 8.0 if the jobs don't get any considerable changes.
Like honestly, who the hell cares about balance in this game? Just make shit fun and unique. Not everything has to like do similiar DPS or whatever. WoW does exactly that. And it's super fun that in some fights some classes are stronger than others.
like SE is deathly afraid of "players being shunned/kicked out of PFs"….Yet I still see, to this day, Dancers and Bards playing/joining PFs and nobody kicks them out because they suck? Like go check FFlogs statistics and both on adps and rdps contribution, they are rockbottom and just garbage. Yet people still bring them and nobody cares.
seriously, just make stuff fun, it doesn't matter if it sucks or isn't comparable to other classes. People will still play it, and nobodys gonna shun them
The channeled skills touches on a really good discussion point regarding PvP skills in general. PvP feels much more open to experimenting with what can be done with skills and toolkits, and there are a lot of ideas present there that I would love to see expanded into PvE job design.
I really like how the castbars while moving in PVP feels.
I dont even care about the damage output, but i would love to see them appear on PVE skills, JUST for the feel of it.
As Dancer main i can say the Positining is not as Flexeble then the other 2 phys ranged, do to the fact that the 3 dance skill Standart Step, Tec and Tillana are mid range and not long range. M2 M3 and M4 are good example from the curent raidtier all 3 off them you can miss your Standart step already in the first min do to Range position if your team mates not give you the space in M4 you strait up miss always if the first bait is a outside first. The same Problem you get on some bosses with your esprit genereation if your dance partner is to far away or the dancer Position in the tec window is to far on a edge like you have in P10 if your Dance Partner is M1 and your are R2 you end up out if range to your Partner do to the size of the Arena.
15:59 no they dont
they had aggro managment till ShB
The thing we call aggro today is not aggro, its a disgrace
Not watched but DPS concern? Some "Mary Sueeeeeeeee" deals 52k dps while having over 3+ gcd speed, and you saying we have DPS "concern"?
We have a DISASTER!
Good god the old BRD and MCH sound like actual fun to play. Instead of everything being put into a static rotation like a melee job, they had their own unique way of playing that would take in to account the encounter they're in. I never knew what we were missing until you said that BRD could turn on their 'stance' and get 30% more damage. So that's where BRD's damage went after all these years.
I just want WIldfire and Hypercharge to last 2 seconds longer, so I can have an easier time playing at higher ping. Or change it to be Stack based not timer based.
HW bard was my favorite ever job. It was so much fun. I loved paying the game and leaning jobs back then. The jobs where just so unique. The constant push and pull of utility and damage within the roles was so cool and fun.
I know I'm rather alone in thos but FFXIV HW is my favourite ever game, and it hurts when I think about that there is no way for me to experience it again.
602 Alvena Coves
DPS rotations and relevent raiding content has been boring for 6 years now. Nothing new. it's just the same thing over and over and over.
I can't get out of gray city, so phys ranged is a good way for me to do savage. Melees carry while i pew pew
I think most roles could do with some sort of reward for playing well. For example, DRK has The Blackest Night which is a defensive ability but if used correctly, they effectively get its cost refunded to be put in to a damaging attack. Of course, they could just have used that MP for the damaging attack in the first place but it feels rewarding when you manage to pull it off. Instead of just 3x Edge of Darkness casts for 9k MP, you've pulled of 3x Edge of Darkness and The Blackest Night for that same MP cost.
Not sure how to implement it with physical ranged but I feel it should be something unique to each job.
Hot take: Phys range doing less damage than other roles is irrelevant. You are forced to bring each role because of the 5% buff. So the only balance that matters is the one between the roles.
Anyone demanding mch should do as much damage as sam and blm does not underarstand this fact and how it would make dnc and bard useless.
I was one of the few that enjoyed Bow mage but I kinda hated that "nocking" casting animation it had and wished it was more of a long draw animation like you are lining up a powerful shot. Unfortunately, I was outnumbered by those that preferred the ARR bard that you could literally play with a single macro at one point. The jobs at this point are becoming stale…it is definitely much more apparent in ranged phys, healers and tanks as their supportive nature doesnt have the excitement of the big numbers of the melee and magic dps brethren. Additionally, mechanics for tanks are not that exciting and I know the team do make it easier on the tanking role (I'm no healer so cant comment there) to ensure its attractiveness to newbies but at the expense of boring veterans. I really have hopes for the 8.0 complete refresh for the jobs but I cant see that coinciding with introducing two new jobs at the same time unless there is an increase in the number of job balancing staff.
i miss stormblood ninja so badly. i feel with you phys ranges! back than ninja was an aggro/utility sup melee. with shadowwalk you gave the target 20sec 80% off youre generated aggro and smoke to reduce aggro generated from a target… or steam to recover TP from physical teammates. that was so fun and felt nice. ive got so much positive credits from guys for using these even in dungeons… i witsh we would have a true utility melee sup now…
obviously doesnt solve the problem, but i think it'd be neat if they spiced up phys ranged LB a bit again. give bard healer LB back and let it be clutch sometimes, give mch its snipe from PVP as, effectively, melee lb – as things currently stand letting the lower-damage mch lb instead of a melee having to interrupt their own personal dps for it would even be a slight gain overall. and hell, then you can even redesign the visuals of the phys ranged lb 1 and 2 to better fit dnc lol (or just give it caster lb)
I missed bow mage and gun mage
i never knew rdps had that channel-and-move skills, they look so fucking cool lol
The charlie brown teacher effect, literally each time i see ppl yap on twitter or on the forums XDDDD