Tribalism just so happens to be part of what it is to be a human…our default state. But that doesn’t mean it’s always what’s right.
Tribalism can damage our ability to think clearly, and rationally, and although behaving in a tribalistic way on this channel would help me grow faster, that’s not the kind of audience I want to build in the long term.
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I honestly agree, tribalism is a problem not just in the mmorpg genre but in general. It's definitely a problem in all walks of life and in my experience this is something that has been particularly bad in recent years more so than say a decade ago, it was always there of course; but I find there is a more rabid and unhinged nature to it in recent years. It could be related to the social changes of recent years, could also be related to the internet, social media, etc. But honestly I think society goes through cycles of becoming more and less tribalistic and that we're currently in an uptick cycle.
P.S. – I'm glad you're taking the slower more steady approach to the channel instead of focusing on following the popular trends, it's a refreshing breath of fresh air seeing someone speak more frankly about subject matters and delving more into the potential reasons of why things are the way they are.
Actually if you choose to be more "objective" it might result in healthier fanbase/viewerbase and overall more professional point of view.
The "tribalism" thing is sort of a extreme version of the In-Group/Out-Group phenomenon. You basically have one group of people, let say WoW players, and everyone
who does not play WoW is in the out group. Every member within In-Group defines itself according to the values of the In-Group they're a member of.
This can also cause a lot of problems like extreme-toxic behaviour to others. In-Group membership is an effect of identity and this can be a tricky thing.
People can get super emotional thus leading to toxicity. It's not about who is right or wrong. It's about the fact, that I must not be wrong, because it means that I am at fault.
I can not be at fault, because it would mean that it is because of my own shortcomings, mistakes, misinformation or whatever.
It has always been about values. The fact that Trump supporters chose Trump was not because of scientific facts, it was about emotions and values Trump represented.
Star Wars fans are the same toxic community. Jesus and George Lucas himself could create a new movie and Star Wars fans would still send death threats to both of them.
I think somewhere between In and Out-Group phenomenon there is a threshold which leads to super toxic and dangerous behaviour.
But this is not limited to us within the gaming community, it's an internet/social media issue. The more I watch negative content, the likelier it is, that the YT-Algorhythm
will show me prototypical negative content. "WoW Bad, FFXIV GOAT". The longer one engages with content like that (likes, shares comments), the worse it gets.
Bottom line: People get mad very quickly, especially if you point out negative stuff about something they identify with. There is a threshold for everyone.
In my opinion WoW (Classic – Wotlk) was thus far the best MMO. Compared to FFXIV WoW still is number 1 for countless reasons.
Does that mean that FFXIV sucks? – No. However…the WoW Community is sort of like the Star Wars community.
Special breed of toxic monkeys, throwing feaces around lol!
This has been going on for such a long time, especially in video game circles, and I think a lot of it is a mix of scarcity with identity politics. Like as a kid, you had the task of trying to convince your parents that the one system was right for you after taking careful consideration of what systems your friends had and whether or not you were going to be able to swap games with them, etc.
8-bit gaming was largely hit or miss when it came to arcade conversions, and I remember that's what fueled a lot of the platform wars. Like Intellivision vs Colecovision vs Atari 2600. Or Atari 400/800 vs Apple ][e/c vs Commodore VIC-20/C-64 vs Spectrum vs TI-99 vs BBC Micro vs Spectrum. Sure, they had their own native games but everybody wanted the best arcade conversions and some systems were better than others even though, generally speaking, 8-bit conversions were usually abysmal.
Then the 16-bit era came around and systems started becoming more similar from a capability standpoint even though their architectures differed. Platform exclusives were always a thing but became more important because you knew that your parents weren't able to distinguish the difference in games between a Super Famicom or a Sega Megadrive. I was born and raised in Japan and my father worked in the gaming industry so I was always surrounded by different systems and I never thought much about it at the time, but video games have always been a big part of my life.
I don't ever remember people saying things like, "Mario Brothers is vastly superior to Toy Bizarre, and if you play the latter you're just an idiot," back then. Sorry, I'm rambling now. I think the tribalism just happens because people want to feel secure in the choices that they've made and try very hard to rationalize why their choices was better than yours, even to the point of vilifying people who have a different opinion, or vilifying video games or companies that they never invested in.
Tribalism is bad and not just in games… I know it is silly to say "it's just bad" but it is just that. Great vid, cheers and to many more
The tribalism is worse then you see in WoW in my opinion because the FF14 tribe often attacks and demonizes anyone that states they prefer how FF14 was during 1.0 era then how it is today. they even caused a decent portion of their first content creators to leave as a result of it. FF14 tribe is also known for demonizing FF11 as well but not to the same extent as they do with 1.0 which many of the players today only go based on what they were told by those that hated it while ignoring and attacking those that liked it
So to make a long story short. Even though ffxiv is a big game and is respected in the MMO community……
It isn't respected in the FF community, specifically those that call themselves a general Final Fantasy fan. The Final Fantasy games that are online, FF 11 and FF 14, are seen as at best, "Spin-offs" to say it lightly. The general Final Fantasy community, not the ffxiv fans but the overall Final Fantasy franchise fans, see ffxiv the same way Blizzard fans saw Diablo: Immortal. A "diablo" game but not seen as a Diablo game but something small on the side. There are two examples I can give you on this, Night Sky Prince and Gaijin Hunter. Two content creators who are FF fans but at one time did not see ffxiv as a Final Fantasy game. Yes, even after these 10 long years, even with all those new customers playing ffxiv thanks to Asmongold and others. A fraction of those new players are Final Fantasy core fans. The majority of people waiting on FF16 are not playing ffxiv or never have. So as long as the core Final Fantasy fanbase do not care for ffxiv, this tribalism or sense of inferiority in some ffxiv players will not go away any time soon.
I don't speak this from a ffxiv fan but a "core" Final Fantasy fan who played every ff game that came out except for 11 and 14. Even with 14 out for years, it was and still is ignored by the core fanbase. It is honestly easier to convince former WoW players to play FFxiv then it is to convince a core FF fan to play ffxiv.
Please take your time and choose the topics you want.
Mad respect for you sticking to your principles.
I personally like FF, Wow, and Runescape. I don't have time to play all three at once, but each one I've played has inspired me and given me hundreds of hours of enjoyment.
I think cult is the word your looking for.
But I agree, the world is shades of grey and people seem to have forgotten that, all you can do is what you enjoy we cant ask for any more than that.
I think you’re putting too much thought into it. Who cares?
As loud as they are, the tribalists are truly in the minority, or so I believe. They might dominate chat but I think views may paint a very different picture.
I played WoW for just over a decade. I still have friends that do. Even though I have no interest in going back right now – not until after the Microsoft sale closes and Kotick is gone at the very least – I wish the game well. Fortunately I have FFXIV to play on a regular basis.
Ok, so game made by rapists and sexual assaulters, not too bad? lol.
I am sick of "WOW being worse then FF in all regards"(example transmog system is better then glamour, not then End result which FF is miles away, which I would like FF copying it) . I am an FF fan and you can see that WOW has some things better but overall FF is in better state then WOW atm. I want my game to improve instead of it is "PERFECT so do not change a thing". Btw MMOs were dying for years and now that they started trending= more tribalism…. It was in the past but my god did it escalated too far.
"It is funny how mortals always picture us Devils as putting things into their minds: in reality our best work is done by keeping things out."
– C.S. Lewis, 'The Screwtape Letters'
You're not allowed to be reasonable on the internet!
I think a lot of the "wow bad" is a coping method (and I mean this sincerely). A lot of people are only recently breaking the habit – in some cases addiction – of wow. And I think a common reaction to that is rejection – like when people talk shit about a recent ex. It's not accurate and it's not constructive. But it's hard to be objective when you're emotionally still so close to the subject.
I actually enjoy it. I really enjoy 14 and hate WoW because to me wow has been absolute garbage since legion began and it has done nothing to redeem itself. The fact they let diablo 3 dev hands touch that game is an insult and I firmly believe WoW does nothing good as a game. It's really funny to me to see WoW get the same treatment its playerbase gave other games over the years too. Gamewars and console wars are beyond stupid but I really hope WoW burns and rots so horribly they have no choice but to shut it down or go back to game design that isn't about EPIC ESPORTS OMG DUUUUUDE WE GOTTA BEAT THE TIMER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't want WoW to be bad, I'd love to have another mmo between FF patches and go back to playing WoW like I did for 10 years but my choices are epic esports pve (lol) or korean money schemes besides FF.
This is a majority of western game developers problem. So-called AAA companies have been presenting themselves as garbage and will just make stuff as low quality as possible as long as they can still make a profit off it. They will put in minimal effort and try to just patch it over a little over time with DLC that costs extra money.
Tribalism? Maybe. Our "default state" because tribalism can be our instinct into warning us about trash. Try not to filter your brains too much into thinking that the way these gaming companies have progressed over the years has not been a pattern. You're being more of an NPC than a tribesman that way.
Humans are hardwired to be xenophobic and tribalistic. It's one of many reasons we're all so awful to each other.
0:05 can't relate. youtube shorts never show up for me
Excellent video. Thank you for this.
I tottaly agree with that thought man. Good vid. Nice when people squish in some realness in all the madness.
I don't get tribalism I play ffxiv but always play other games. But a lot of the 14 vs wow is small very vocal minority in both camps. It's never good to tie an identity to a game/belief or whatever. Yet I get why people want too they need to belong to something as collective. Just I don't like when people are not open to hear or think about new concepts so their ego can be protected.
I think it's cool you are plan to not use pandering to either camp to grow your channel. You chose the harder path I can respect that. If at some point you change your mind on that I can also understand the duality of making that decision too.
It’s great someone actually is willing to say this.
You get a like for that tiktok trend.