Seeing Thordan Ultimate in the trailer inspired me to discuss the extent of his betrayal and ultimately the consiquences that we’ll never shake off. It’s a sad story about a mad leader. Something that’s oddly topical these days.
Support the Channel on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/synodicscribe?fan_landing=true
Channel Art by Catti: https://twitter.com/cattiart
Join the Channel’s Discord: https://discord.gg/YKBu4sQBEk
Follow me at: https://twitter.com/ScribeSynodic
Disclaimer: The MMORPG known as FinalFantasy XIV Online as well as all its related publications and merchandise are owned by Square Enix. I have no claims to it.
Primary Sources:
Video Games-
FinalFantasy XIV Online
Publications-
Encyclopedia Eorzea Volume I
Encyclopedia Eorzea Volume II
Alternative Sources:
FinalFantasyXIV, The Lodestone/Sidestory
FFXIV, Letter from the Producer
Published FFXIV Brand Art Books
#ffxiv #endwalker #thordan
source
Awesome!
Ahh, I love this channel so much! ♥ I was just watching the Dragoon back story, so I was pleasantly surprised to see this pop up.
Please keep up the fantastic work!
I must thank you and your videos, they helped me with my FC trivia night and I won first place do thanks, also love you videos, since I'm replacing all my wow knowledge woth ffxiv knowledge now
So you're saying we need to eat Midgardsomr's eyes and kill the dragons before they kill us?
Isint it a bit hypocritical of the dragons to expect mortals to strand up against their corrupt leaders? to go against desires for self preservation and safety? Dragons are capable, and willing to use what is basically mind control to force their children to follow their will. The storm blood dragoon quest shows us that Nidhogg wouldent have suffered any of his children advocating peace or forgiveness.
11:01 except Midgardsormr would be unfathomably retarded to do anything of the sort, and we know very well that Midgardosrmr is not a retard. By his own admission, Eitherys is the LAST bastion of hope. It is the only star that presently bears life on it thanks to Meteion slurping it all up, and it will take a very long time for that life to trickle back into the wider universe after her defeat in Ultima Thule. Plus, it was war that ultimately destroyed the Dragonstar in the first place. For Midgardsormr to destroy the entire world would ultimately doom his entire species, which he sailed across the cosmos itself to prevent.
Ultimately, that is the great folly of Dragons. For all of their power and their might, they have the irritatingly bad habit of viewing the world in very broad, generalizing strokes that DO NOT in any way acknowledge the underlying complexities of mortal life. They view time differently, and their emotions burn far hotter than our own, as Nidhogg's genocidal madness is evidence of. But this broad-strokes view of the world they now call home is, invariably and without exception, just another form of short-sightedness, and does more harm than good. To deny that is to deny the very history you're discussing.
Thordan committed an abhorrent atrocity. But did innocent civilians commit those deeds? Did those civilians have the capacity to stop their king? To anyone viewing this from a lens of understanding, the correct answer is 'no.' Hell, given the deception Thordan's knights wove after Ratatoskr was slain, it is easy enough to theorize that no one even knew that Thordan was doing what he was doing until after the deed was done. And do tell, how is one supposed to prevent that which they do not know is even taking place? The correct answer is that they cannot.
I harbor nothing but admiration and respect for the dragons, make no mistake. But sooner or later they are going to have to get their shit together and realize that the way they view the world is no longer appropriate. They are no longer on the Dragonstar. They are on Eitherys. If they refuse to adapt and meaningfully advance their views on things to be compatible with their new home, then the tragedies of the dragonsong war will be repeated as much by the hands of dragons refusing to consider the wider complexities of the world as it will be by a handful of ignorant mortal men and women who call the shots.
And under no circumstances can war, genocide, or murder be justified. None. Period. Full stop. Nidhogg's sister was wronged, as was all of Dragonkind when Ratatoskr was murdered, but Nidhogg lost any and all privelages to sympathy or compassion when his rage extended beyond those who actively committed the crime. He became just as much of a villainous monster as Thordan and his knights the moment he burned the first innocent man, woman, or child. And worse, it wasn't even a war. It was Torture. A vile, unforgibable act for which there can be no forgiveness.
For all of the evils committed by Ishgard's leadership during that war, I will say that the archbishop was right on one point, and one point alone. Children who had nothing to do with their father's evil deeds SHOULD NOT, under ANY circumstances, be made to suffer in retribution for the misdeeds of their predecessors. And from where I stand, the same is true for innocent men and women who were unable to act as those in positions of power called the shots. Nidhogg forfeited his moral high-ground when he did that. As did those dragons who condoned his senseless slaughter, and those who actively aided him.
There is a reason the saying goes 'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.' It doesn't matter whose eyes those are. Dragon or man, it makes no difference.
…
Not gonna lie, I usually really like your videos, but this one really got under my skin. It just felt like it came across as needlessly mysanthropic, and it also felt like it was giving undue validation to Nidhogg's actions. I could not care less how wronged Nidhogg was, he was still an unforgivable monster when he went on his rampage. That is not up for dispute.
And thus one mans paranoia and hubris doomed generations of his people
Another thing to note is that mortals have rather terrifying similarities in thought process to the Omicrons.
One thing to note is is that the dragons are guilty of just as many crimes as Thordan was. Nidhogg punished and slaughtered thousands of people who had no way of knowing that a crime had even taken place against dragons at all. His actions made it easy for the Ishgardian church to paint all dragons as aggressors and Ishgard as innocent victims, because to many of the everyday Ishgardian, the dragons attacked and slaughtered them without provocation.
This, and your video about Minfilia being done dirty, are probably some of the only videos I dislike of yours. When you mention Minfilia was done dirty it made it sound like you think the only type of power and influence a woman can have that has any merit or worth is combat prowess, and in this one you seem to absolve the dragons of all blame in the war.
Oh my! Dragons are unsundered aren't they!?! So no dragons on the reflections unless SE goes to great lengths to explain.
This also shows just how much compassion Vtra has for his people he’s known about mankind’s betrayals and faults yet he still cares for his people…. Though you could say he cares because he is essentially their immortal ruler that won’t be succeeded by anyone (yes it’s not like he’s god king or anything but)
To be fair, the dragons should never completely let their guard down around mortals anyway. Them having experienced two seperate occasions what mortals can become if they give in to their lust for power or their fear of mightier beings than themselves.
That way they can readily prevent tragedies of the past ready to repeat themselves at a moment's notice.
The dragons may be powerful and wise beyond their years, but they're also susceptible to naive thinking. Something they need to learn to resist to insure their own race's survival.
Personally I think it says a lot that instead of attacking the dragon that showed him contempt. He instead went for the one that showed him and his people nothing but good will. He even stabbed her in the back to take her power acting like a god even though he had done nothing to earn it. We're the dragons wrong with how some of them treated humans yes, but Thordan in the end only though about his own people and how he could lead them to greatness over the corpses of others.
I heard an interesting take on the Dragonsong War and Thordan's ambitions. Shadowbringers spoilers ahead:
So, the Eighth Calamity was the calamity of Light, the Source was priming itself for that, but what if Black Rose was a contingency plan? What if the original plan for the Eighth Calamity was to use the primal Thordan VII had become as the catalyst? We don't have any explicit statement saying which element he was associated with (to my knowledge) but he certainly looks Light-aligned. The biggest hole in this is that the world wasn't primed yet, but it would stand within reason that the Ascians could be using that as one of the "priming" events.
Thanks for sharing; take care
something i'm confused about from the level 80 dragoon quest, was ratatoskr nidhogg's first mate or were they just really close
I know this is somewhat unrelated but king Thordan VII may have become a primal but it may be possible that him using Nidhogg's eye to in power himself runs the risk of both him & all of his knights being corrupted & control by Nidhogg & that alone could be a calamity. Imagine Nidhogg having both the power of a primal & the power of a great dragon with Lahabrea life force & that just him having one of Nidhogg eyes.
This really puts vritras success in thavnair into picture. In his words even when ratatoskr was slain he couldn’t bring himself to smite the mortals he had walked among for so many years
While Thoradan is 99% to blame for this situation, I don't think it's fair to dismiss Nidhogg's opinion's of humanity having a part in this nor his rampage again the humans who were unrelated to this rather than the leaders of the city. While dragons are creatures of emotions they are perfectly capable of restraining themselves and rational thought. There is also the matter of Hraesvelgr giving his eye to his brother despite knowing what would happen if he did and lets not forget that Nidhogg gave his brood no choice in attacking Ishgard and forced them to do so even when some of them did not want to.
This whole situation was handled poorly by all parties and never needed to happen. Regardless even if this was avoided the ascians would have used this civilization to prime another calamity eventually so it was doomed from the start until the current WOL and co showed up
DISCLAIMER: This video was made to focus on Thordan's betrayal, why it was considered unforgivable and how the dragon's justified their rage. I'm not pardoning the slaughter of innocent people like many are assuming. The video discussing Nidhogg's decline into madness comes later. That video (along with the complete history of Ishgard) will take time, I'm just one guy.
I have a question. We know Shiva let her self be eaten. But what if the she dragon did as well. We never saw in the vision the king killing her. Only said he did. What if this was a plan between them?
You know, this is quite intriguing.
When you hear a great dragon say, he labors after a thousand years to comprehend the enormity of a betrayal, he f*cking means it!
As an aside, I love that line. It's one of the best from Heavensward.
I know it wasn't mentioned here because the focus was on Thordan's Betrayal but there are also clear differences in the psychologies of the various mortals throughout the world that I find interesting. For example, the Garleans always address the Eorzians as "savages" which from an outsider's perspective makes perfect sense when you look at their history. But then you also have to wonder just how much influence the Ascians have had over the world at large. Is it possible that ALL of the world's greatest conflicts were sparked by the Ascians in some way and that without their influence people may have found ways to work through their differences?
I look at Thavnair and Merycidia as prime examples of how two similar cultures could come to two very different ends. Both Vtra and Bahamut/Tiamat made their homes in their respective lands before they even came to be known by their modern names and through their rule settled disputes and kept the general peace. Yet Bahamut was eventually slain by the Allagans upon their revival and Tiamat was tricked into summoning him back as a primal that was then bound and used as a power source and thus Merycidia seemingly fell to ruin. Vtra, on the other hand, decided to take himself out of the spotlight and rule from the shadows only making himself known to his people after his proxy was killed and the end of the world was upon them. By this point the Ascians were gone and the people, already aware that a dragon had a pact with their leader, seemed open to the idea to continue serving under him. It's not impossible that some group of mortals could have been tricked to come after Vtra after revealing himself were the Ascians still around but now that idea seems highly unlikely. Pair this with the fact that Vtra has probably spent more time with mortals than any other Dragon alive and is also aware of the happenings of other dragons around the world and those odds become even lower as Vtra would definitely know what sort of telltale signs to look for preceding such an incident.
Another place that proves this bond can work is Thavnair as it flourished under the rule of a dragon. But despite this, Vrtra is all too aware and it makes him hesitant to unveil himself as its true ruler from fear of repeating another dragonsong war if the people of Thavnair were to learn the truth and rules from the shadows and hides behind his Sartrap and replica.
Something just popped into my head that I never even considered before: is being immortal an aspect that possibly comes to beings who are unsundered or who at the very least carry vast amounts of aether? Like, we know that the Ancients were all immortal in the sense that they chose when they returned to the aetherial sea due to their incredibly dense aether (yet despite this there was still quite the wide margin between their individual abilities). All of the dragons that we've come into contact with were also immortal despite all being descended from the same small pool of genetic diversity. They are seemingly able to self-actualize their shapes as they evolve over time and only continue to grow steadily stronger. Then, we have many of the beings that were encountered towards the end of 6.0 who were also immortal in different ways but still immortal and the only commonality I can see between all of these different beings is that they were seemingly never sundered which seemed to allow them to lead longer lives and thus push towards their eventual ends much faster and easier. Mortals, on the other hand, have to struggle just to make it through the day at times and so there lives are defined by an eternal march to keep moving forward as much as they can while ensuring that future generations can take up where they left off. Feo Ul said it perfectly back in Shadowbringers that it's a mortal's lot to sow seeds that they may never see bloom in the hopes of a brighter future.
I can just imagine the dragons and Ishgard relations staying strong over the thousand years. Forming alliances with the other Eorzean nations. The Garleans roll in to conquer Eorzea, Midgardsormr shows up to fight off the Agrius with Nidhogg and Ratagoskr at his side. Midgardsormr survives the fight.
With the influx of refugees from Ala Mhigo pouring in and, with the emboldened Eorzean alliance, they push the empire right back out of northern Aldenard. This scares them into jumping to the whole plan to bring down Dalamud but with the combined Eorzean, Ishgardian, Dravanian, and probably Ala Mhigan allied forces they manage to stop them. Thus forestalling the Seventh Umbral Calamity.
This would, of course, mean that the Crystal Tower remains buried, Coerthas remains a more temperate zone, Louisoix and the Circle of Knowing would still be around, and New Sharlayan would probably still be in operation. How this would affect summoning Alexander is kind of in the air. If Mide's group would team up with the Sharlayans to awaken Alexander given the potential and original purpose of it. And how they might use Alexander for their "Glorious Purpose" or whatever.
The events of Heavensward and Stormblood wouldn't happen. Which would have an effect on the events of Shadowbringers. Everyone would probably just get Black Rose'd and the First would fall to the light because there would be no Crystal Tower or reason to awaken Omega. The Seventh Calamity brought by a surfeit of light. Then the Ascians rejoin the reflections. By this point Meteion has probably built up enough Dynamis to completely drown out Zodiark's barrier of aether and life in the universe ceases to exist.
So in a way Thordan's Betrayal saved the universe.
I didn't even think about dragons being unsundered. I forgot that they are aliens and weren't around until after the final days and the sundering
Honestly, if Nidhogg slaughtered the Knights of the Round and no more than I wouldn't have batted an eyelash.
Real quick but I had a question about something in the level 80 dragoon quest that is tied to this video so real quick spoilers ahead
When I played through the quest i remember that vedfolner and his mate said that the betrayal and butchering of ratatosker seemed less premeditated and more spur the moment. Am I just remembering it wrong? Also I do remember that thordin did pose the question to ratatosker about what nidhogg thought about humanity and if they could be caretakers of the planet like the dragons. I might just be going too deep into this but this definitely doesn’t make thordins actions I think it would make it even worse sense it would mean he wasn’t thinking about consequences when he did it.
I'm just thinking of Legend of Dragoon and the Dragon Spirits that come from their eyes. The humans in that game had to grab then to stand up against other oppressors. I wonder how a crossover would work?
"Proving that mortals can never be fully trusted."
Ah, good to see an ancient and incredibly wise race of beings has the intellectual capacity of a belligerent toddler. Seeing the actions of a few and assigning blame to everyone is some ultra simplistic thinking and I don't think anything about any dragon's dialogue shows that they think of "mortal races" as some big hive mind or something.
Frankly the entire Dragonsong War struck me as weirdly petty and childish. Not that Nidhogg wouldn't be filled with rage, but that it would be this bizarre attack on a completely irrelevant-to-the-conflict collection of beings who obviously were completely uninvolved with the betrayal. It's like you (not you personally Syn, you do good work, speaking generally here!) have to make the dragons dumb assholes to get the pieces to fit properly. But in the actual story we see how thoughtful, considerate, contemplative, compassionate and empathetic they are. It has always sat poorly with me that they'd be on some utterly meaningless and self-destructive revenge crusade for something that could not be undone by people who didn't do it to begin with, to punish others who were long dead and couldn't give a shit less because they were dead.
And it's kind of made even more bizarre in hindsight because of Endwalker. Clearly Midgardsormr was able to endure incredible loss and sadness (so, so much more than Nidhogg) without becoming a raving lunatic about it.
"Well, Nidhogg isn't Midgardsormr, he's another being entirely."
That's true! It's almost like dragons aren't a hive mind and individuals can make colossal mistakes and be desperately wrong and stupid even when their anger itself is more than justified! And that if humans around the world dedicated their lives to eradicating dragons because of Nidhogg's actions, they would not be framed in this weirdly "well, they had it coming because of what Nidhogg did" light because they would be wrong and assholes for doing so.
I mean, I know, I get it, the story goes into this and that's kind of the point, but I just can never fully suspend my disbelief long enough to believe the dragons would be so dumb in the first place. Nidhogg going crazy and his song making his brood go nuts as well, sure, but the other dragons? Really?
I like the character you take on in these. Like a real historian if it was real history. I can only imagine how well this would go if we were discussing real world politics and history 😂