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for me its good i like that's its actually a summoner it feels like its designed really well but its just not for me anymore its too simple like imo more simpler than red mage and its like not engaging at all not saying old summoner was perfect imo no it was worse then this version but at least it kinda got some complexity and it kinda filled the role of being the caster thats not easy to understand and not easy to master i would say blm is easy to understand and hard to master but rdm is easy in everything unless your at high-end optimization but now its like only black mage is left and we have both smn and rdm and for me they get old so fast i just hope that the new mage or magical dps takes this role if thats makes sense and is actually the most complex caster or something like similar to the role sch and sge have in relation to the other healers but for the casters anyway for me its like a boring job that looks amazing and have an amazing aesthetic
Having finally gotten my hands on SMN after leveling and messing around in the EX trials I can safely say I detest this version of SMN with a fiery passion. Pretty much the visuals are the only thing it has going for it in my opinion. If others are enjoying it, that's totally fine, but good lord do I feel like they missed the mark on what they should have done.
Despite giving themselves carte blanch to remake the job they not only failed to fix ghosting but they actually made it significantly worse in casual content. This is doubly so for anything below 90 since Ruby and Topaz have to physically walk up to the target and attack, and if the target dies before they get there good luck having it flip targets before it times out. Even the 90 versions can do this if the target dies during their summon animation. And not only can you still ghost their raid buff and defensive, but because carbuncle has to be alive to cast either you're literally locked out of your only defensive move for almost half your rotation because all the primal summonings keep killing the thing. Bahamut's AI also still breaks and he'll just follow you immediately after summoning wasting a bunch of Wyrmwaves if for some reason he doesn't get the memo to start auto'ing fast enough. Why doesn't he just auto attack, you know, automatically?
It also feels simultaneously way too slow and way too empty. Like, why is the follow up to Crimson Cyclone also a GCD, especially when you have nothing to spend there anyways? Both Bahamut and Phoenix are 1 button spam fests since you run out of oGCDs to weave 2 GCDs in and don't ever get anything else to fill the rest of the space until Topaz's Astral Flow at 86, and even then that's just for Topaz. Even then the gem summons feel really disjointed. Garuda is the Go Fast phase but has a 4s cast/recast. Ifrit is the slow and (supposedly) powerful phase but immediately goes into super fast dash pummel instants that don't chain together well. Likewise Trances being on the GCD just feels awful to me. Just feels like a wasted Astral Impulse/Brand of Purgatory.
Maybe I'm being uncharitable but it doesn't feel like we got 2+1 jobs for Endwalker, but more like 2 + maybe half of a rework. Reaper and Sage are complete out of the box, they don't need more time or expansions to build up to something cohesive. Comparatively Summoner at 90 feels like a level 70 EW job that didn't get anything in the final 20 levels. There's just nothing to tie it together besides "look at the cool summons at 90, isn't that neat. Ok go back to spamming your ST or AoE button now."
I know I'm especially bitter since I LOVED Heavensward's incarnation of Summoner. By far it was the most fun mechanically since it had DoT uptime and mana management to maximize the amount of Ruin IIIs you could squeeze out. Every expansion since then has consistently pulled the pieces of that out until Endwalker finally scrapped the entire thing, and now I no longer have a caster job that resonates with me at all. It honestly hurts to have something you enjoy taken away with nothing to fill the gap. Playing Summoner was a big part of why I stuck with this game initially, and pretty much everything I initially liked is gone or dropped.
nah u need diabolos period
given the theme of end walker nah hes perfect for next summon
I think it has a good foundation. I look forward in to seeing this class grow!
The job is 1 or 2 buttons but also limited at the same time and it makes me concerned because i personally don't believe it has room to add ogcds currently. Ifrit is too slow and garuda is too fast for weaving. Titan is currently the only summon that can weave in energy drain/fester but ED lines up during the short ruin 3 phase currently. The only things i can think of currently is to remove energy drain altogether (or made into a button that 'transforms' based on each primal) and making each summon phase longer. Making each summon phase longer will at least give room for more buttons and primal specific rotations while also making it important to summon correctly depending on fight conditions. At the moment Titan is the only summon (between ifrit and garuda) that is about the length i think it should be. The obvious concern in making each summon last longer is that a full rotation of baha -> 3 legos -> phoenix is already SUPER long as it is.
On top of all of this, the build up to bahamut and phoenix is super lackluster as well since phoenix completely removed its already base 1-2 combo in shb to become 1 button and bahamut now has no complexity in ruin iv optimization and is literally 1 button mashed over and over until the phase ends. If the 3 primals inbetween remain as is, I would at least love to see bahamut and phoenix get more buttons to reward the player with a big burst phase.
All this said, I do think smn needed a rework because it was a confused job in terms of job identity but old smn had a lot of skill expression with ruin iv, ruin ii, and dot uptime. If SE wanted smn to become the new "easy" caster in place of rdm, who currently has a lot more skill expression now with the acceleration change alone, then it is what it is. It just upsets me a little because i still love the job but hate playing it for long periods of time because it gets really boring ;-;
The summon is more epic than ever. Give us more cool summons – all with different cool utility. One with a spell damage reduction. One with a small buff to the raid. One with a satisfying burst window damage. Let us pick and choose what tool is needed right now.
I was a smn main since 2014 but now I switched to rdm smn is madd boring 2 button rotation no thank you
I tried out level 80 new summoner on a striking dummy and was so painfully bored, I hope once I get around to levelling it it gets better. Because with the aggressive removal of monk positionals I dont want to be down on both main reworks.
This job is actually easier than machinist now, which, you know that's not necessarily a bad thing but I do agree that maybe a few more buttons to make it more engaging would be good ESPECIALLY with how carbuncle just sits there and phoenix is a really weird DPS loss to unlock.
With regards to dots, you know I think that they should figure out a way to tackle the issues dots have in many gameplay situations first, like can you imagine the pain in the current extreme trials having to dot up an orb and it just shatters in the following two gcds xD maybe something like reapers death design where you get gauge for dotted up things dying would be good.
I'm probably in the minority here, but what Mr. Happy calls a "smooth leveling experience" is a down side for me. I actually like having my rotations change as i level up. I remember reaching level 60 on ShB SMN and learning how tri-di, dreadwyrm trance and hardcast dots play off each other over the course of the two minute rotation. Old smn build up in layers. New SMN just didn't have that feeling of gradual discovery and leaning.
Yeah… I don't love the new SMN… Aesthetically and thematically, amazing, but gameplay-wise, I enjoyed SMN because it was a dot class… Then again, I main BRD and am having a similar feeling of disjoint there too, but BRD feels way more fun…
Switched from a machinist main in SHB to a summoner main now and I’m having an absolute blast it feels incredibly smooth to play with absolutely no down time , the flexibility you have knowing which primal summon depending on the situation ( if you’re on the move or not ) give it some little depths that I was afraid it would be missing . I have 9 jobs to 90 right now and it’s probably with reaper the most satisfying and impactful dps to play by far . Maybe a little low on dps but with that mobility it can’t get too high balance wise .
Hi there!
So I feel I fall into the camp Happy mentions in the video. While overall I do like the summoners new kit, I wish it had been a new job, or the old summoner was kept, and rebranded, or something. I loved the old summoner.
The main reason I enjoyed it though, is also as I understand is a reason it was unpopular, the high level of complexity. While overall having a fun eb and flow. Now, summoner is just as my group calls it "A ranged physical with 3 hardcasts per minute"
Does anyone else cry “Ifrit!/Titan!/Garuda!/Bahamut!/Phoenix!” with specific commands when summoning their respective Primals?
No? Just me? Well okay then…
So is spell speed build the optimal build right now?
My biggest issue with the new Summoner is how late it gets the favors. The favors are level 86 skills and I think they make up the majority of what little interesting gameplay the new Summoner offers. I feel bad for anyone having to level Summoner now from level 1, that's 85 levels of mind dumbing nothingness. And considering that a lot of the content in this game is played with level sync, I really don't feel like bringing Summoner into any of the roulettes.
I loved Arr summoner (even with the pet jank) because I loved the versatility but I'm glad they fully committed to the change rather than the half hearted Shb version and even though it's no longer the job I love it's still fun.
Think the biggest downfall for the new smn is the drastic change of audience. The smn mains of old went for the class do to the complexity. And the satisfaction of it. But this new direction takes away all the complexity to a very very fixed and ridged rotation that does not allow flexibility in the slightest. And no picking between 3 Legos is not flexibility. It's just makes the class more ridiges cause thr class is telling you when you can move. Unlike old smn you can move when ya want to and need to without out the class giving you a middle finger
As someone who used to be a SMN/SCH main, I loved ShB SMN, it had just the right amount of controlling your pet/summons and casting your own that felt satisfying for me. With EW, the complete change just didnt interest me. It feels like Im just spamming GCDs. Swapped to BRD mostly now.
The only thing I don't like about it is the inability to glamour the level 90 summons. It's like if you've had a dog for years, then one day someone replaces it with a monkey and tells you to love it. Really not cool SE.
New Summoner is incredibly fun but I still think they should make a caster dps that has DOT skills and whatnot. People will probably complain about old summoner being repackaged and resold but honestly that can just be ignored to salt.
I love the simplicity of the summoner. It lets me focus more on the Boss fights. I tend to struggle with rotations and zone out. So i hope they don't change the simplicity of the job.
I’ve played SMN almost exclusively until ShB when I leveled most the other jobs above 70s. When my friends would convince me to play WoW in past years (no more!) I would always say a downside was picking a class, and sticking to it. In FFXIV I never had that issue, because I loved SMN that much. I loved the little intricacies of minmaxing it, the excessively long 100 page long Ahk Morning guides- these are the things that compelled me and many others.
I leveled it 80-90, did the ex/raids, and have now entirely switched to RDM. I hate the new SMN. There is a difference between ‘simple’ (DNC, SAM, MCH, etc) and this. It’s just….. empty. The kit feels like when you go into pvp and your entire combo is thrown onto 2 buttons. There are no places to improve, weave, mix up the order, save cooldowns, change positionals, manage dots, manage your pet and it’s intricacies… nothing to separate you from others. It’s just. The same spells in a neverending circle.
I was SO hyped from the first look of the updates to SMN which likely set myself up for disappointment. I still enjoy the new aesthetics of it all. But that’s about it.
I’m a simple man who appreciates simple DPS.
As someone who mained SMN from ARR to SHB, I believe they are going in the right direction with this job and have finally allowed us to live the fever dream of actually summoning cool shit. That being said, even though I agree with you that they have laid a very solid foundation for them to build upon for upcoming expansions, I'm of the opinion that dumbing down the job THIS much was a mistake.
Sure, the foundation is solid and very easy to build upon for future expansions, but I also feel like they've cheated us a little bit. Admittedly, the summoner should have been designed like this from the VERY beginning. Summoners are about summoning cool shit, not throwing dots everywhere, and I believe that, if it had been designed correctly from the very start, we would have AT LEAST had three more primal summons, or another demi-summon, or even both, which honestly I don't think is too greedy to ask for considering the pace at which the job developed from Stormblood to Shadowbringers (going from Bahamut to Phoenix).
It's amazing that they fixed the job and have made the aesthetics and the abilities fall in line with what Final Fantasy summoners are about, but for a job that has been in the game SINCE ARR, giving us only the "foundation" for the job, while taking away most of the complexity around it, is a little unfair to those who previously loved summoner for its complexity. Don't just give us the foundation, give us the foundation PLUS the cool shit that we honestly deserve.
At the very least, if they absolutely insist on not giving us more primal summons for this expansion, giving us a few more oGCDs, such as by giving us an extra Ifrit-themed oGCD to use in between Crimson Cyclone and Crimson Strike, or by giving us more shit to weave in between demi-summon + energy-drain and fester combo, will give the job some of the OOMF it currently lacks in my opinion. Red mage currently feels so much better to sync down to below 86 with, plus it deals more damage AND has better utility and oGCDS up the wazoo at the same time, which I just feel is plain BS. I don't mind it if SMN becomes about as easy to use as RDM, but don't make it SIGNIFICANTLY easier, please.
THAT BEING SAID, I do disagree with you on one point: the rigidity of having to choose between the three primals and not skipping straight to the next demi is good job design IMO. You mention that it feels really bad if you find yourself having summoned the wrong primal, and now you suddenly can't cast ruby rite because a mechanic forces you to move. This is a GOOD thing, because it is the only aspect about the job that gives it any complexity, and this is why SMN feels so good to bring into hard content, whereas it gets a little too boring in most easy content. When you cock up the order of a summon, then sure it FEELS bad, but you're supposed to learn from that, so that next time you reach that mechanic, you know that you should summon Titan for max mobility to keep your uptime. I gotta tell you (even though you probably already know this), in extreme trial #2, summoning Ifrit just as the boss signals you to get ready for spread, then going under the boss, casting ruby rite, going away from the boss, then weaving in the ruin IV you've been saving just for that situation, casting the other ruby rite while the mechanic goes off, then jumping STRAIGHT back in front of the boss and smacking the shit out of it feels GREAT, man. It's good that you need to time your summons for specific mechanics. It makes it feel a little more like a BLM in the sense that you have to time your abilities around the mobility allowed by the boss mechanics.
SMN, fighting with the most powerful and evil beign on the moon
Carbuncle, chilling in the corner: damn bro that's crazy
hand down the worst job i have ever played in an mmo. On top of it's absolutely braindead rotation, it is just simply unfair to have a smn in a raid while a blm, brd or most melees have engaging rotations they have to keep up, while smn presses the shiny buttons and does good enough dps
You summon shit and watch the summon do big explosion, it's what Summoner always was in FF games, it's what annoyed me about the "wowee I'm a warlock not a summoner look at my dots and dumb small summons" summoner in shb. Fuck that noise.
I am in the camp that appreciates the simplicity. The 1/2 button spam with a few other buttons and cooldowns sprinkled in when they are up feels closer to Isometric ARPG complexity and that's a nice comfy spot to be in for me and no doubt many others.
Dancer filled that niche for me before, but having an easy class available from level 1 rather than 60 is gonna be huge for new players.
When I started FFXIV I chose SMN as my main because it was the closest thing to a WoW Warlock, and I'm fine with it moving away from that. The job never felt like it was living up to its fantasy. What irks me is that between SMN's rework and BRD's removal of dot interaction (which I leveled for that sole purpose after learning of SMN's rework) this game no longer has a dot-focused job at all. Sigh. Anyway.
They nailed the concept with SMN – big flashy summon does big flashy attack and alters your spells to fill the time in between. Awesome. Not for me but it nails the fantasy and that's what matters. But that's all this is, a concept. It desperately needs some kind of actual gameplay other than hit the glowy buttons – decisions to make, resources to manage, timers to watch, combos to execute, *something*. There's so much that could be done it pains me how barebones this job is, like SE ran out of time and shipped the most basic build possible. Some people seem to like it but I have to wonder for how long.
I guess only time will tell if there's more coming to SMN or if this kind of design is the future of FFXIV. Or if there will ever be a job focused around dots (Squeenix plz). It'd be nice to hear from Yoshi-P and team on the matters.
On the topic of power I found it pretty jarring leveling Reaper alongside Summoner. I've also heard Reaper is on the OP side and it certainly feels strong, meanwhile my poor SMN is struggling to even stay alive and seems to kill things about as fast as a healer outside of Bahamut (and with about as much complexity) lol.
As happy as I am with EW SMN, I will always miss what I had with Heavensward Summoner. They could honestly bring most of that kit back for a Chemist DPS Job and i'd play that too. There was just something about Bio/Miasma/Shadow Flare/Bane/Contagion management that was super satisfying.
I main scholar and at 90 I thought having a look at summoner spells. Job trailer looked awesome! It's so basis that I thought fo quite some time that I was missing something xD
It's hardly a clean slate when it still has a lot of vestigial weirdness, and probably a level 90 job should be more than a clean slate. It's the most basic job in the game now and it's pretty dull to play.
I disagree SMN still feels like a BLM with big flashy spells and only feels like a SMN when you have Bah and Phnix. If you think about it you summon Ifrit that is just BLM casting flare then 2 casts of fire since he pops out casts 1 attack then poof you are left to cast 2 fire spells and a gap closer.
I do not know why people consider the primals summons. They appear, cast one spell and go away, that is just a visual effect. No interaction with them, no pet attack commands, nothing. They are just bard songs, click it and it allows using other stuff. I've been playing SMN all through SB and ShB and this rework is just all style, no substance.
for me SMN become so boring, and I main it from lvl 60. Its sad…