Today we’re discussing the problem with using 3rd party tools in FFXIV to make challenging content easier.
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#FFXIV #FinalFantasyXIV # Addons
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I am 100% with you on this Rui.
Console player here and I'm able to clear content without add-ons. I have played since 2013 and watch the ui changes over the years to improve layouts etc. For the longest there have been videos on how help with getting more info ingame with default ui for debuff and buff etc. And I have alway used stone, sky, sea to test my rotation meets or beats the dps meter all of this available to all players within the game.
I honestly don't get shock about third party tools have been banned since 2013 SE always where like use 3rd party don't show don't tell we will over look it.
People have forgotten the rules, the unspoken agreement. Don't use addons, and if you use them, don't speak about them, don't do it publicly, ever. Streamers and content creators got lazy, they got complacent, they thought they were good, but they already had crossed the line. And sure, you can argue that Squenix should have warned them (they have), they should be more lenient (come on, the bans are not permanent), they should examine each case seperatly (already done btw, and could be pushed to infinite), or they should differenciate between "good" and "bad" addons (and let people dance around the difference).
Point is, a lot of people have been stupid, but don't assume their stupidity and instead desesperatly try to present the rules as unfair so that they can be safe, and risk the game's integrity and delicate balance of trust between the devs and the playerbase by doing so. Basically, they double down on the stupidity by adding a solid dose of selfishness.
Just…let…it…slide…lay down for a while, and don't frigging publicly show or talk about addons. Don't force the hands of the devs, because they either will ban you, or they will bow down and make the game worse for everyone (and this is not an empty prediction, we have a couple solid exemples of things getting worse for it.)
I never used addons =)
I've always hated add-ons, and the super over-reliance that WoW has on them anymore. That is why I love FFXIV, everything can be cleared WITHOUT them. And if you can't clear it, then either work harder to learn the mechanics..or just admit that you are not good enough to clear an Ultimate or something. I am not ashamed to say that I likely will never clear an Ultimate of any kind, but does that make me salty. Nope, I just know my skill, and my limits. And give mad props to those that do clear them WITHOUT using add-ons.
Leave it to high end raider to ruin a content tailor made for them.
Imagine WoW playhers actually learning to play a game without their crutches and tools to make the game easier and artifically scale up the view of their actual skill.
I'm actually having a hard time clearing Extremes (currently cleared Endsinger Ex earlier) and I still get anxiety because this is the 1st expansion where I do actual high-end stuff but after all the deaths and party wipes, my actual 1st clear becomes priceless for me :). Just relying only on visual cues from the boss and the "meter" when a boss action is being casted/performed is brain-eye-hand coordination exercise and becomes second nature after running several times…so seeing this actually breaks my heart…I hope this doesn't become another large MMO being ruined because of this. I don't mind mind mods for aesthetic purposes really but this…this is what I'm sad about.
i was a fan of alot of streamers and then i heard a robot voice calling out things and they lost all my respect and money xD
i dont need a second deadly boss mods it made raiding so boring to me
yes i use guides and raiders who do it without get my respect and money but im just now so done with this entire thing.
also here is another thing im typing halfway so sorry if u mention it later on.
it used to be dont show dont tell we fine as with logs and analyzer ,u didnt talk about it on streams and u dont promote them.
Alot of streamers started throwing up middle fingers and just displaying it on screens and saying they wont do anything most of them are crying now.
il set in the comfort of my fun raid groups in savage and hope they clamp down on it with most addons but as u said get a common sense thing where u know its helping u to clear as in WoW dbm dont need those things
Guess what, me and the boys cleared 2nd Coil Savage when HW came out and no one was using any add-ons, you don't need them.
I remember the first time I did Ultima Weapon Extreme and figuring out the mechanics, we wiped maybe 30 times, but our first clear was beautiful, and no one used any add ons.
It was easy, they should just not speak about it. Thats it. They got too cocky and broke tos. Its their own fault. And we need to respect their decision, and defend the devs.
Used to play wow as well and I hated how many mods you had to have to play the game. TO PLAY THE GAME. Healers needing heal bots etc and the sad part is people defending the modders in this game is sad. I know of mods that let you know if someone targets you. Didn’t think much of it till the pvp issues, heal bots as well. Programs that target and limit break people in pvp if they meet the % to instant kill them. Auto targeting and everything. It’s beyond just simple things like people claim “wanting to get better” with using ACT or “accessibility” issues they all claim but ignore the massive cheating happening. How about auto setting markers in an instant? I could go on. It’s pathetic and lazy.
In response to 4:59~ SE has the right to take your videos down, they allow it mostly, but can take it down; almost all game streams break copyright. Usually it's in the company's benefit to allow it, but please read the TOS of any game.
I agree 100% that DBM style tools lead to bad gameplay and would be glad if they were to disappear from all MMOs. Thing is, FFXIV encounters run on a strict timer where bosses will always do a given ability exactly X many seconds after being pulled. So in essence, even without using an actual "third party addon" you can just setup a text to speech discord bot that will do a large part of the callouts. The timeline addon shown at 12:50 is an example of this, even with a total ban of all addons, that stuff will still be available and it is literally impossible for square to stop it unless they fundamentally alter how they create their encounters.
In my opinion, instead of being draconian and banning every form of addon(which people will still use in secret btw), it would be much better to make it so the randomized aspects of the fights cannot be read by cactbot because as far as I'm concerned it is the only addon that actually poses a problem.
Instead now we have everyone afraid to use gshade and simple gui alterations while the actual problem remains unaddressed.
I think most of the addons are collateral damage of the primary focus. I think they saw the absolute cheating going on in PVP and decided to clean it all up inclusive of seemingly innocuous addons. If you are ignorant to the scripts being used in PVP I suggest watching this fine video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXlzYhvlOdQ It's an eye opener. One guy using the scripts made Crystal rank in only 55 fights. No one is that good/ lucky. I believe the FF14 staff made the decision to do a blanket application of addons, but I think it was triggered by the scripts in PVP.
I saw the video they had ACT out in the open with Cactbot running
Packet spoofing tools were first used by the gold sellers for gathering as they move from node to node within a zone, the spoofer places said bot into the ground so as to stop players from clicking on them and reporting them for cheating.
Release the video of shame.
The problem with just brushing off the discord is a third party tool argument is that you can do much more than just VOIP with it. For instance, because of the nature of ff14 fights you can make a discord bot that calls out what mechanic is coming next using a TTS bot with a timer
also folks some of the meatsacks want SE to swap engines to UE5…. that engine has over 2-300 known cheat engines if not more available… Now why would they want SE to do that???
This is good, props to Yoshi for stepping up, this is good for the game on a whole, This as been a problem in WoW since the beginning and it's got more out of hand with every expansion , but as with Blizz they always leave things until its too late, this is why they make so many systems and things so complicated it will eventually kill the game just as it already has been doing
Xeno doesn't consider Playstation players seriously.
Damage meters are not needed. At. All.
5:29 You can find their video that was claimed. one of their main crew was caught while streaming- using a FF version of DBM combined with Bigwigs and safe spots were highlighted in blue or white while attacks were a completely different shade of yellow and red.
Addons becoming a barrier to entry and hard requirement to join groups is one of the biggest reasons why I quit doing hard content in WoW. I'm glad Square Enix is taking a stand against that shit. Sure, they're overzealous, but I'd rather have all addons be banned than all be allowed.
I have a better solution than Banning for people who get toxic with damaged m. Give them a debuff that lasts until the end of the patch called lowest of the low and make it so it can't be seen by other players so that those players don't get targeted either, also make it a stacking debuff, and what it does is reduce your damage to always be lower than the lowest damage in your party by 15% per stack.
about 4 years ago I slammed the WoW door behind me and opened the door to ffxiv. I use addons like ACT dps meters and Delvui and I will keep using them. If they dare to ban me 1 time. I will slam the ffxiv door behind me and will reopen the WoW door. It seems like wow and ffxiv did a 180. It seems ffxiv devs are annoying players now and wow devs start to listen.
I really hope WoW refugees aren't using Cactbot. You left for a reason. Don't make this new place like the one you left.
If only the Pokemon Company would follow their example with coming out and saying hacking bad when it comes to online battles and their offical tournaments
That Developer post was extremely straightforward, and honestly, anyone that's been doomposting and/or taking things out of context really needs to take a look in the mirror.
19:30 "Anything that Effects the Difficulty of an Encounter should not be allowed"…..Sorry but in my Opinion this is a way more complicated Topic to solve it with 1 Argument.
You can clearly see on the 1 Picture that you only have a Timeline of the Attacks. This Timeline alone doesnt tell you anything. It only shows you which Mechanic comes Next. This is actually the Job of a good Shotcaller via Voicechat. He also didnt do anything else. So where is the Difference in an Addon that tells me the next Mechanics or me recording my own Voice and play it before every pull?
I can tell you the next mechanics of every Fight in the current Raidtier just because of the Fact i already did it within the Last Months over and over. I have over 80 P1s Kills already. I can do every Mechanic without even looking at it.
For me a Timeline alone doesnt effect the difficulty of the Fight. When you have already over 400 Pulls in an encounter you technically didnt even need something like that anymore. I think it will get more reasonable when you have Addons that helps you to EXECUTE a Mechanic easier…..that type of Addon should be forbidden.
For the DPS meters for Savages, Extremes, and Ultimates … I agree we should have them, but I'll take it one step further. You should only have a DPS meter FOR YOU. If, as so many ACT users say, Parsing Data is a learning tool for personal development … there is no reason in the world that you should need the Parse data of those around you. And, within Parsing Group and Static Discords, its there you have the choice to share that data with others. Some groups may require it, sure, but they still don't get it by default. If its meant to be a tool for you to get better, then a tool for you and your character is what it should be.
I dont know why people are making such a big deal about it when literally last time the add ons were brought up to yoship he said please don't forced us to take actions …. we don't want to have to define what's can be used and not
that was 6 months ago …
They forced their hand ….
I don't think ff14 will do a wow thing because add-ons they might do a risky play and put an anit-cheat system to stop people from using add-ons. Streamers make it more and more apparent that they can't trust us.
I have got to be honest..if you cant clear content w/out a load of addons and mods…then it isnt the game thats the problem.
I play on console and can confirm addons are not necessary.
Going to play as the devil's advocate here even though I personally despise and refuse to touch any combat add-ons.
I think a lot of people are taking what Xeno said out of context. He obviously knows Discord is not what SE meant. The point is the ToS is not only being enforced inconsistently and worded in a way that is very vague. It ultimately doesn't matter what the community thinks is fair and not, everything that interacts and alters the game are a bannable offense in the ToS including innocuous things like Gshade and other QoL plugins.
To those who say the devs say they are taking a black and white stance on this: they don't. They've always took a hands off approach when it comes to addons so long as you don't use it for harassment or talk about it in-game. Even Yoshi-P was on record saying banning someone using ACT (as a damage meter, the callout trigger is another thing entirely) is ridiculous since you can achieve the same thing using an Excel spreadsheet or a calculator, it just makes the display easier.
The only times they enforce this rule is seemingly when there is a huge community outcry (i.e. every single Ultimate race). This is my single biggest issue. Whether the bans are justified or not, actions speak louder than words. The ToS weaponizes and enables trolls/anti-plugin crowd to harass and witch hunt streamers.
This is an extremely touchy topic in XIV and will always come up every time it is in the spotlight unless this status quo is broken. Either a blanket enforcement (which mind you will mean Gshade is not allowed in this case) or taking a more lenient approach on add-ons by specifying which ones are allowed and not, are the only ways to stop these drama from ever happening again.
I will say that Heavensward, which is a song used in the fight, will get your video a DMCA so damn fast. Lots of people have been through that.
I doubt they manually reported it in order to disincentivize 3rd party add-ons: it's just YouTube being fucking YouTube and auto-tagging videos.
As for what add-ons I think are bad, a timeline is fine (where all it's saying is "tankbuster", "aoe" or the names of of the ability which you could just look at the cast bar and still see), but telling you what to do is not exactly good.
That being said, most of those types of add-ons aren't really ready for release for a few days after patches release, so this will not likely affect the world first race as much.
What I think is kind of ass is using add-ons that will definitely give you information that you would not realistically ever be able to track. For example, having timer cool downs to show, for example, how many seconds until the dancer can do their Technical Step again. If you were just looking at Dancer, you could sync with them sure. But also keep track of Trick Attack, Mug, Battle Litany, etc?
Any third party tool that affects the difficulty of the fight Does FF14 have a VoIP? ingame? no. I thought so.
Ofc I know that it isn't bannable but their hardheadedness in just saying "ALL third party programs are prohibited" and not specifying anything because of console parity concerns.
They need to just outright BAN EVERY 3rd party tool, discord, Gshade and all included. Or make a fucking black and white list, which they won't because "muh console parity"
The post about third party tools doesn't even have any new information/ a new stance on third party addons. It's only the fact that addons were shown on stream was the problem, and the fact it because so wide spread. They'r still gonna tippy toe around modders and addons if they're not shown on the screen. So basically it only affects streamers.
It's the same shit when they ban someone, they won't tell you outright the thing that got you the ban, they just tell you "You did X, and you're geting an X day ban for it." Nothing from when it happened, what was the thing that went over their "vaque bullshit" trigger rules. They don't help you not break their rules a single bit ever, and it's the same shit here with addons/mods.
I get people liking add-ons for UI and visual enhancements. My issue is with people who complain about some content being too easy when they use add-ons that help making that content easier.
The only thing I'm okay with as far as "add-ons/mods" are things that make the game look nicer. I hated having to use certain modes in WoW, it just makes me feel like the game is poorly designed because you HAVE to use mods in order to make the game feel better.
you know the comment I see folks you folks malding,crying and lashing out at me arare only making my point more….and filling my cup of your salty maulding tears .
I think Square Enix did the right thing and needs to set an example. Addons should not be used in an MMO at all especially the ones that shows DPS meters. Its Toxic and Narcissistic and its why Master loot is a terrible feature in an MMO.
I would say about act, most don't find a problem with it but why do you need it to be on your screen in game, you don't need to show it and you can see it in the main act window, also i think realistically they should just ban all mods at this point and just be done with it, it's been proven that all content can be beaten without it, not to mention it would be unfair to console players. Also from what i understand japan has very hard crackdowns and laws on modding and such so yoshi is not gonna back down on this one.
Thoughts don't even matter it's against TOS. And they straight told people to not make it obvious which is not hard to do. Tough shit
I agree I got tired of WoW because of addons and ever increasing requirements. If you start letting people use recount, DBM type mods you'll 100% start seeing a shift to a more ultra hardcore game. No if's on that one it's a big audience and out of some of them they'll definitely start moving the game in that direction.
and as they say don't show off your mods or say you have them they can't detect them otherwise. it's there but it's a risk and be prepared to be clapped if you take the risk and get caught.